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The issue with Ostheer Tech 4.

17 Feb 2017, 17:47 PM
#21
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2017, 17:37 PMVipper


The information was not presented as viable tech paths but as the total tech cost of each faction.

This also highlights that Ostheer tech is both linear and has to practically unlock everything while gaining to little for doing so.

OKW FRP was included because the USF Major provides the same.

UKF Forward Assembly (250MP) was not included because it act as Ostheer reinforcement bunker+USF weapon racks+Artillery call-in+Garrison for emplacement and needs to be upgrade to FRP (200MP), and in my opinion would confuse things.


I think your point would become clearer if you show the relevant tech paths. You can also present the total cost on the side. However, everybody is going to skip all non-essential tech anyway (FRP, molotovs, mills bomb).

Otherwise, if you want to present the total tech cost for each faction, there is no objective place to draw the line. e.g.:
- include bofors or not (since OKW T4 is basically the same thing)
- include M20 or not, since every other faction has mines
- Reinforcement halftracks for Soviets/OST, since it counteracts 5-men upgrade for Brits, and FRP for other factions etc

However, for most intents and purposes the games are almost always over before the optional stuff is ever purchased
17 Feb 2017, 18:34 PM
#22
avatar of Smaug

Posts: 326

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2017, 16:44 PMzerocoh


Lie. brumbbar just beat up any medium tank head on.

and to anyone that will be a denier...



brumbar fires an arty round. its inconsistant vs tanks and has a long reload. Any player getting his tank wrecked by a brumbar has probably very slow micro to flank. Even if he moves the tank in any direction its nearly impossible for the brumbar to hit it.
17 Feb 2017, 19:31 PM
#23
avatar of scratchedpaintjob
Donator 11

Posts: 1017 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Feb 2017, 16:44 PMzerocoh


Lie. brumbbar just beat up any medium tank head on.

and to anyone that will be a denier...



i just watched that replay. your opponent missplayed that badly

and brummbar+gren+pak 40 were not enough to stop cromwell from killing the brummbar and it almost got away, so claiming that the brumbar beats the cromwell is even in this case pure bullshit
aaa
17 Feb 2017, 19:44 PM
#24
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1437

molotov as optional grade just brings them in line with oposing infantry that already have grenades. So it must be included. Things like repair station and forward HQ is smth that you dont have so it is it should not be considered teching cost.
Level of community is getting so low that is beyond words. Liers and idiots are most of us currently. Non 1v1 games attracts this kind of public.
17 Feb 2017, 21:37 PM
#25
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1256



i just watched that replay. your opponent missplayed that badly

and brummbar+gren+pak 40 were not enough to stop cromwell from killing the brummbar and it almost got away, so claiming that the brumbar beats the cromwell is even in this case pure bullshit


The Brummbar is pretty good against things like SU76's. They make a great meat shield in front of pak40's and wipe weapon teams like crazy. The Panzerwerfer is also okay. I like the Katy a little better but it still seems okay. The real issue with T4 is that it takes a long time to get there and is expensive. Also, the Panther needs some buffs.
17 Feb 2017, 23:17 PM
#26
avatar of Mirdarion

Posts: 283



The Brummbar is pretty good against things like SU76's. They make a great meat shield in front of pak40's and wipe weapon teams like crazy.


Like crazy is an overstatement - because (aside from PaKs) any team weapon caught by the Stupa must have done something terribly wrong to be there in the first place. At its cost, the Stupa would have to perform at Centaur levels against infantry to become viable, especially at that point in the game, and even then you would be hard-pressed to find it useful. The lack of a turret and small firing arc combined with the still terrible pathfinding only amplifies this.

Normal tanks deal well enough with infantry, unless you run them straight into AT guns and handheld AT. The Stupa is the answer to a question nobody asked, which is why you never see it. It is such a niche unit in its application, that I have wondered since 2013 why it is a non-doctrinal unit. The Stupa should be replaced with a significantly beefed up Ostwind in Tier IV, while the Ostwind's place in Tier III is taken by the Puma. That would allow the Puma to actually bring some "shock" (as mentioned above) value in, while enhancing strategic diversity: Do I go for the cheaper Puma and shut down the enemy's light vehicles RIGHT NOW, or do I wait a bit longer and get a StuG which will prepare me much better for the inbound armour.
18 Feb 2017, 00:45 AM
#27
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1



Like crazy is an overstatement - because (aside from PaKs) any team weapon caught by the Stupa must have done something terribly wrong to be there in the first place. At its cost, the Stupa would have to perform at Centaur levels against infantry to become viable, especially at that point in the game, and even then you would be hard-pressed to find it useful. The lack of a turret and small firing arc combined with the still terrible pathfinding only amplifies this.

Normal tanks deal well enough with infantry, unless you run them straight into AT guns and handheld AT. The Stupa is the answer to a question nobody asked, which is why you never see it. It is such a niche unit in its application, that I have wondered since 2013 why it is a non-doctrinal unit. The Stupa should be replaced with a significantly beefed up Ostwind in Tier IV, while the Ostwind's place in Tier III is taken by the Puma. That would allow the Puma to actually bring some "shock" (as mentioned above) value in, while enhancing strategic diversity: Do I go for the cheaper Puma and shut down the enemy's light vehicles RIGHT NOW, or do I wait a bit longer and get a StuG which will prepare me much better for the inbound armour.


It took me a while to make the connection that the "Stupa" is the Brummbar. I thought you were mispelling "Stuka" and was wholly confused.

(TIL "Stupa" was german soldier slang for the Brummbar.)
18 Feb 2017, 11:39 AM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6270 | Subs: 1



I think your point would become clearer if you show the relevant tech paths. You can also present the total cost on the side. However, everybody is going to skip all non-essential tech anyway (FRP, molotovs, mills bomb).
...

The relevant tech paths only strengthen my point since is much more viable for other faction to skip buildings and techs than Ostheer, that not only has to move linearly but can not avoid unlocking all non-essential like bundle grenades for P.G.s for instance if one does not build Pgs.

In the end of they day the numbers are there and if anyone wants to compare viable tech Paths one can. Imo one will see that T4 is problematic investment costing to much with little in return.

Imo the T4 for units may have their problems not being cost efficient enough but that is also another issue with T4. It does not provide a multi-role option or cheap back up for the expensive specialist.
18 Feb 2017, 12:39 PM
#29
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4315 | Subs: 7

My own personal opinion on the matter, I think that whatever changes to T3/T4 should achieve the following goals:
- At the end of the day, all factions converge to the same power level by the end of the match (equal does not mean same)
- Ostheer should be given the opportunity to tech both T3 and T4 (i.e., not get burried in Crushwell/SU76 spam)
- Ostheer should be required to tech both buildings by the end of the match (i.e., Stug spam shouldn't scale so well); i.e., should not remain an optional upgrade

To achieve all of this, I think the best option would be:
- Make it actually, practically feasible for OST to choose which tier they want to go for first (T3/T4)
- Reduce the distance between T3/T4, so that OST doesn't become "trapped" in the wrong tier
- (obviously) readjust the strengths/weakenesses of the units therein, so that each tier has a soft weakness to something (to make both tiers necessary by the end) e.g., spamming Stug's shouldn't hardcounter heavies, and spamming Panthers shouldn't hardcounter TD's
- Optionally, reduce the timing until the first "shock" unit for OST can come out. That way, OST gets to experience one part of the game where it is the allies that have to anticipate the move (which is the inverse of the light-vehicle phase).

Currently, T4 is a very bad option to go for (Brummbar's great but expensive, Panzerwerfer is too niche and Panther is utterly useless). Thus, T3 is an one-way. Then, since OST gets hounded so hard by SU76/Crushwell, it tends to stay there.

The current choice of T3/T4 units make it so that T3 is a generalist tier, mostly suited for cautions defensive play, whereas (an idealized) T4 is for breakthrough units. If everything else fails, we can always reshuffle units in tiers a bit.

Regarding teching cost comparisons:
- I think you shouldn't be including the FRP upgrade for OKW. It is entirely optional, and in many modes this is skipped. Otherwise you also have to include the forward assembly/FRP thingy for UKF.
- The other thing about teching costs is that certain teching paths are almost never picked. For instance very few people research all 3 USF tiers.
- Certain optional upgrades are also very often skipped, or left for the very end (after all units have been unlocked). Mills bomb is a good example of a never-buy upgrade.
- The rest of the UKF upgrades come down to style, but it's a 50% split between infantry upgrades and a fast Cromwell. A good reason for that is that those optional upgrades cost way too much manpower, whereas the direct skip-everything tech costs way too little manpower



This
18 Feb 2017, 13:08 PM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 6270 | Subs: 1


Mr.Smith wrote:
- Make it actually, practically feasible for OST to choose which tier they want to go for first (T3/T4)
This

Imo that can be achieved as I suggested by swapping Brumbar with Ostwind:

1) T4 gives access to Panther/Ostwind combo and open they to buff Ostwind since it arrive later.
2) T3 gives access to an expensive AI tank (Brumbar). Brumbar will probably need to become more expensive maybe have a change of role also either by becoming more like a KV-2 (support fire) or increase frontal armor and reduce lethality to act a breakthrough tank.
18 Feb 2017, 15:04 PM
#31
avatar of karskimies

Posts: 67

New WBP "brumbar jr" stuG E would become pretty obsolete if you could get t3 brumbar instead :P
19 Feb 2017, 06:57 AM
#32
avatar of DAZ187

Posts: 419

i once saw two brumbars kill a engine damaged comet :snfPeter:
Vaz
19 Feb 2017, 07:34 AM
#33
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 905

T4, like the entire Ostheer lategame, is dictated by allied army composition.

Most Allied players expect Axis to try and use their heaviest tanks in some fashion. And for Brits and USF countering axis heavies is identical to countering axis mediums. As a result, T4 is usually only worth it for a panzerwerfer or two to barrage mounting ATGs and AT infantry blobs.


Yep, my thoughts exactly. This is what I do playing as USF. Prepare to destroy increasingly heavy tanks. Pretty much every game is like this. They forget or stop doing infantry play and expect tanks to do all the work. This is less the case in smaller games though.
1 Mar 2017, 07:14 AM
#34
avatar of Storm Elite

Posts: 246

Both Ostheer and OKW need a max tier infantry unit.

If Soviets get to have bulletproof cancer infantry, then we should too.

Put a single model Storm Elite type character into the Ostheer T4 and an elite SS squad into the OKW final tier.

Panzergrenadiers and Obersoldaten are both high DPS units, one for close range, the other for long range, and are flimsy to compensate.

So the final tiers should have elite infantry that are the opposite: standard damage (not high DPS, not low) and high durability, with elite abilities that allow them to impact the kinds of units and fortifications one can find in the late game.
1 Mar 2017, 13:15 PM
#35
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4315 | Subs: 7

Both Ostheer and OKW need a max tier infantry unit.

If Soviets get to have bulletproof cancer infantry, then we should too.

Put a single model Storm Elite type character into the Ostheer T4 and an elite SS squad into the OKW final tier.

Panzergrenadiers and Obersoldaten are both high DPS units, one for close range, the other for long range, and are flimsy to compensate.

So the final tiers should have elite infantry that are the opposite: standard damage (not high DPS, not low) and high durability, with elite abilities that allow them to impact the kinds of units and fortifications one can find in the late game.


Recieved acuraccy means nothing lategame, when shells are falling at you, just saying
1 Mar 2017, 16:10 PM
#36
avatar of Xutryn_X7

Posts: 131

Just increase panther accuracy(maybe on the move also?)+decrease ROF and i think that's enough
1 Mar 2017, 17:47 PM
#37
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

Both Ostheer and OKW need a max tier infantry unit.

If Soviets get to have bulletproof cancer infantry, then we should too.



And there, my friend, you made it perfectly clear what you are writing for.
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