Ostheer Faust requires the existence of T1

Ostheer's Faust requires the existence of the T1 building, and can even be lost is the building is destroyed. Imo it should at least for grenadiers be available even if the T1 building is destroyed.

From another thread.

"Until then the fact that Cons have to research AT grenades offer no tangible advantage to Wer that has to built T1 to access Faust. " --> that could be true if you have to built t3 to get faust, but saying that you have to build t1 to get access to faust (building where green are built) is soooo funny...is as much as saying that smoke for shermans has a cost of 120 (t3 fuel cost) +110 (sherman fuel cost) = 230 fuel....

It might be funny but it also true. NO t1 building no Faust for Ostheer.

What you say might actually make some sense if one had access to Faust only from T1 building but that is not the case:
A) one can have faust via osttruppen without the T1 building
b) one can have grenadiers with out having a T1

I am not sure why you link T3 and Faust since we both know that Ostheer would be broken if faust was unlock with the T3 building...

So I actually stand by my claim...
The fact that Cons have to research AT grenades offer no tangible advantage to Wer that has to built T1 to access Faust. And I will add that is simple asymmetrical balance.

For "Ostheer" yes, you are technically correct.

It's more accurate to say Ostruppen need T1 for Faust. As in, Ostheer needs to build T1 for their call-in infantry that use panzerfausts. Functionally, this is really Ostruppen. The grens that get called in are hardly a feasible unit to rely skipping T1 for.

Ostheer also needs to spen 80muni and 10f for snipers and mortar access.

This is like the debates about USF and OKW flak gun and 'free' teching.

It's more about how 'right' people want to feel despite the reality of the game.

This is like the debates about USF and OKW flak gun and 'free' teching.

That said, there are some significant imbalances there. For example OKW doesn't get free medics and free repair pioneers with their teching anymore, or that the lack of side-teching for Ostheer barely counters the effects that the cheaper and faster teching with "free" units of USF have on the gameplay (getting direct access to snares instead of needing veterancy for that is barely countered by the free forward retreat point the Major offers, for example - especially as later on these teching differences heavily outweigh the side-tech costs).
A lot of that is of course really complicated to depict properly (making Gren MG 42s a side-tech would lead to massive problems in tech pacing for Ostheer - even worse than it is - as their core infantry doesn't work without those MGs - they are not a strategic option, they have to be upgraded in order to have any hope against other infantry).
There's also the argument that sideteching increases strategical diversity, by allowing for different strategies through tech-rushes for examples. This hardly works for some factions, as the teching costs are still (even in the current WBP) massively fucked up in favour of certain factions, not to mention that the teching structure itself heavily favours some factions over others.

The biggest problem here is the scope of that imbalance. So many things tie into this, that it is virtually impossible to correct even small mistakes without creating even worse problems in other areas (or even in the same area). That is why the OKW medic system is so fucked (especially if the WBP idea of locking the 251/17 behind medic tech goes through) and is in dire need of a rework (again), because it in no shape or form is a fairly adjusted investment - especially as it is basically not optional, considering the ridiculous ammo drain of health packs and the manpower bleed suffered if a player ignores healing.

Careful, you are passing on to a thin stretch of ice. Wanting changes for any Axis faction that might have a positive outcome for them is the strictest of taboos around here.

Ostheer's Faust requires the existence of the T1 building, and can even be lost is the building is destroyed. Imo it should at least for grenadiers be available even once the T1 building is destroyed.

From another thread.



It might be funny but it also true. NO t1 building no Faust for Ostheer.

What you say might actually make some sense if one had access to Faust only from T1 building but that is not the case:
A) one can have faust via osttruppen without the T1 building
b) one can have grenadiers with out having a T1

I am not sure why you link T3 and Faust since we both know that Ostheer would be broken if faust was unlock with the T3 building...

So I actually stand by my claim...
The fact that Cons have to research AT grenades offer no tangible advantage to Wer that has to built T1 to access Faust. And I will add that is simple asymmetrical balance.

point is that as SU, you pay just for AT nade, where as OST you pay to be able to use Faust on your greens and osttruppens, but at same time, you are getting access to build 3 types of units....that is the difference....so, again, comparing cost of a side tech with cost of a tier is so funny and wrong.

Careful, you are passing on to a thin stretch of ice. Wanting changes for any Axis faction that might have a positive outcome for them is the strictest of taboos around here.

So edgy...

point is that as SU, you pay just for AT nade, where as OST you pay to be able to use Faust on your greens and osttruppens, but at same time, you are getting access to build 3 types of units....that is the difference....so, again, comparing cost of a side tech with cost of a tier is so funny and wrong.

But then again Soviets don't have to do research before teching up (not relevant for Tier I of course, because there is no Battlephase 0), which allows for more strategic diversity by completely foregoing a tier without having to pay partially for that tier nonetheless. SO UNBALANCED! Oh wait, it is actually simply asymmetrical balance, which in this case works out relatively fine.

point is that as SU, you pay just for AT nade, where as OST you pay to be able to use Faust on your greens and osttruppens, but at same time, you are getting access to build 3 types of units....that is the difference....so, again, comparing cost of a side tech with cost of a tier is so funny and wrong.

And the point is that as Ostheer you pay weather you need the faust or not while as a Soviet you can chose when and if you want to get AT grenades.

And while we are at you have a problem with Ostheer getting their Faust in package deal, but you have no problem with Allied call in infantry that come with "tech free" grenades and "tech free" weapon upgrades while Ostheer have to research T2 get the same goodies for their call in units...

Think the majority of Ostheer players would rather have Faust, grenades, lms and Shreck as side techs if that allowed to have a non linear tech path allowing to invest their resources at they choose...even if it meant a bit higher price which is not actually the case since the total tech path of Soviet is cheaper.

Total cost of Osteer tech path is 830/290/60 (MP/fuel/MU) and of the Soviets 910/225(MP/Fuel).

You will always need Faust upgrade because sooner or later you will need to destroy tanks engines. Same is for at grenades for sov. If your t1 is destroyed, it is gg in 99 situations because your opponent just destroying your base and you don't have something to protect it. Faust won't help you in such situations. We all know that tech tree of ost is a bit too expensive, but these changes won't help to solve this problem. Faust and rifle grenade as a separate upgrades will hurt to tech tree and timing more than now.

...Faust and rifle grenade as a separate upgrades will hurt to tech tree and timing more than now.

Well that is not I suggested I was merely demonstrating out that claiming that Ostheer have an advantage because Faust comes with T1 and Grenades, lmgs and shrecks come with BF2 simply does not hold water.

The flexibility of the Soviet tech tree is not actually a disadvantage and I would go so far as to call it an advantage.

What I have suggested is that faust should not be lost if the T1 gets destroyed.

I have lost my t1, rebuilt it so I had access to faust and won the game still example. I think killing base structures should be quite impactful and wish it was slightly more of a factor for other factions too (looking at usf and brits here).

I think this is a lot of argumentation over 80 manpower and 10 fuel.

There's no supply yard or kraft centre for buying vet in coh2. And for that reason the utility and strategy of attacking bases is pretty downplayed except for only wiping squads as they retreat.

Actually, having the cheapest building in the game is a bonus itself. You can always build it if opponent tries to destroy your base.

As for the faust, the whole point is that this is a building you build 95% of times, so you automatically have the faust. The upgrade factor is there just so if you get greedy and want to only spam ostruppen without T1, there is an disadvantage to it.

Timing the T1 well is most important and possibly most interesting part of the early game of ostruppen stategy. And so it will be if you go for pio spam next patch.

WELL battle phase1 upgrade would be a replacement for t1 panzerfaust upgrade. If osttrupen is core infantry.

Actually, having the cheapest building in the game is a bonus itself. You can always build it if opponent tries to destroy your base.

It would be if:
A) Ostheer was not the only faction that does not have T0 mainline infantry and thus has to spent time and resources in order to make mainline infantry...

B) If other Factions like UKF and USF did not have the luxury of not have to rebuilt anything but just repair...

C) If Soviet lost any abilities b losing their T1...(not that I am suggesting that they should)

There is hardly any justification making sense that Ostheer should lose faust in their grenadiers if they do not have the T1 building.

It would be if:
A) Ostheer was not the only faction that does not have T0 mainline infantry and thus has to spent time and resources in order to make mainline infantry...

B) If other Factions like UKF and USF did not have the luxury of not have to rebuilt anything but just repair...

C) If Soviet lost any abilities b losing their T1...(not that I am suggesting that they should)

There is hardly any justification making sense that Ostheer should lose faust in their grenadiers if they do not have the T1 building.

Are you trying to tell us you want Ostheer to build T1 and need to research from T0 faust upgrade? Something that would simply double the price of gren/faust?

Are you trying to tell us you want Ostheer to build T1 and need to research from T0 faust upgrade? Something that would simply double the price of gren/faust?

My suggestion can be found in the OP...