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Why did Panthers seem to work in Coh1 but not in Coh2

26 Sep 2016, 21:58 PM
#1
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 965

Panthers seemed fine in Coh1 from what I can remember. They weren´t overpowered yet packed a punch. In Coh2 I have the feeling they go from one extreme (overpowered) to the other (absolutely useless) from patch to patch. Currently they are in the underpowered category again.

What do you think are the reasons they seemed way more balanced in Coh1 despite Wehrmacht vet that could be bought. Is it gimmicks like Blitzkrieg that make it harder to balance? Or did they simply get wrong stats? I can´t point my finger at it but would like to see Panthers like they were in Coh1 again.
26 Sep 2016, 22:16 PM
#2
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3094 | Subs: 2

CoH's Asymmetrical balance > CoH 2's Asymmetrical balance, simple as that.
26 Sep 2016, 22:38 PM
#3
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Just make them kill infantry but have really low aoe so it can kill 1 model max 2 the rate of fire already bad so it would at least kill some inf (like vcoh)
26 Sep 2016, 22:45 PM
#4
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

Because there was no 4v4 automatch in coh1.

Why is that important?

Basically because there was no loud call for changing the early vs late game balance. A lower teamgame audience meant there was less people to complain about how much of an advantage late game dominance effected large team games. Especially since the most popular teamgame map was the scheldt.

Coh2 on the other hand has always had a large teamgame audience from the start, so the axis late game advantage was a huge balance topic from day 1. Add on the fact that the first 2 allied factions have even weaker non-doc late game options in coh2 without things like upgradable 76mms, so allies late was even weaker then it was in coh1 half the time.
26 Sep 2016, 23:01 PM
#5
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

How can a panther jump from being UP and OP from patch to patch without being changed at all? Its either a delusion or something conected to other units. I would bet on the first option though as panther seems to be just as a solid choice as it always was for me. Not cheesy or overpowered, just solid, like all other units should be.

In fact, solid choice is what you can use to describe almost all non-doc ostheer units. Thats why the faction seems so perfect and works with such a synergy. Unless you use one of its meta commanders that completely redefine its gameplay.
26 Sep 2016, 23:31 PM
#6
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

the competition are a lot tougher in coh2. There's no comet or is2 in coh1.
Vaz
27 Sep 2016, 00:08 AM
#7
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1141

There is that strange thing with panthers missing a lot too. My memory might be kind of fuzzy, but I don't remember coh1 panthers missing nearly as much. Panthers seem to be faster in coh2, though. That can be easily determined through values, but that's my feeling.
27 Sep 2016, 00:39 AM
#8
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

panther can't hit anything. Increase its accuracy (especially on the move) and its fine.
27 Sep 2016, 00:52 AM
#9
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

They way vehicle combat worked in CoH1 is really a whole lot different than with CoH2.
27 Sep 2016, 01:55 AM
#10
avatar of Waegukin

Posts: 609

It worked in CoH1 because Allied TDs were either really expensive (FF is like 10 fuel less then a Panther IIRC) or cheap and spammable with stats closer to a medium tank's (M10), only one Allied heavy tank (Pershing) and no "heavy"medium tanks. Wehr T4 was also more accessible.
27 Sep 2016, 02:50 AM
#11
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

Comparing COH1 and COH2 tank play is like comparing American football to football because they have the same name. COH1 had a completely different tech structure against a completely different Allied faction(s). You can argue with me that COH2 Wehr is similar to COH1 wehr, but the similarities are mostly in unit name alone. In addition, the factions it faces off against are very different than the Americans from COH1.

The problem with the Panther right now is that it is hard to budget a T2 to T4 push, which is needed to support this unit. A linear tech through the entire tech tree is near impossible in any game mode, expect the longest 4v4 games. Usually though you get 3 levels of tech and then rely on call ins.

In summary the games are very different, the Panther needs a small amount of love to bring it in line with other units, a good sign the balance is close. If you don't believe me go play COH1 again and see how tank battles resolve, they bear only a slight resemblance to COH2.
27 Sep 2016, 10:58 AM
#12
avatar of sluzbenik

Posts: 875

I mean in COH1 team games if you survived the Allied onslaught, vet 3 Axis tanks would eventually win you the game. It did happen in 1v1 too, but rarely. You just couldn't afford the vet in 1v1, not because of a lack of fuel, but because of a lack of manpower. There was the ever popular defense/med bunker strat that did get to vet Panthers occasionally because you were getting numerous zombie grens.

It was always acknowledged Axis had the better late game whereas US was much stronger early to mid. It was just part of the game and the community generally accepted it, whereas in COH2 everyone seems to have had much more of an issue with that design, mainly because Relic always said they were trying to balance across the entire length of the game.

I remember quite a few Montargis games where Axis was literally pushed off the map, with not even a fuel point and we managed to claw our way back with vet. That was annihilation mode though. And why people hated the vet system.



27 Sep 2016, 11:16 AM
#13
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677


The problem with the Panther right now is that it is hard to budget a T2 to T4 push, which is needed to support this unit. A linear tech through the entire tech tree is near impossible in any game mode, expect the longest 4v4 games. Usually though you get 3 levels of tech and then rely on call ins.


There is a another solution swap Brumbar with Ostwind. Both units become more attractive and t2 to T4 becomes easier...

The problem with Wer T4 is that it has very expensive very specialized units so you are either left without AI or AT. Allowing cheap ostwind for AI and expensive Panther for AT should work...
27 Sep 2016, 11:22 AM
#14
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

I am assuming you are referring to the Wermacht Panther, and not the PE Panther.

I would rate the reasons for Panther dominance in CoH1 (from strongest to weakest):

1. The vet system (both for Panthers themselves, and the supporting units; Zombie Grens, KCH's, etc)
2. Panthers were very solid anti-everything units
- tank MGs in CoH1 were massively stronger
- the Panther gun in CoH1 is equivalent to CoH2 easy8 (i.e., not the best gun, but still pretty decent)
3. Allied TDs were very cost-inefficient, and they couldn't hurt infantry, unlike the Panther (except the glorious M10 crush)
4. Tank durability seemed to rely more on raw HP rather than armour (RNG)
- In CoH2, a vet2 panther has, literally, the same durability as a Churchill, if you only present its front armour. However, lucky penetrating hits are devastating
5. The fact that the lucky last-shot crit system at 0% HP was only resolved in CoH2
- the more expensive the tank, the higher the stakes

With respect to Panther durability and cost-efficiency, it felt like using a CoH2 firefly to fight a unit with
- The speed of a Comet
- The durability of a King Tiger
- The AI capacity of an easy-8
- The AT capacity of a jackson
- .. while costing something like 10-20% more than the dedicated TD designed to counter it

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2016, 11:16 AMMyself


There is a another solution swap Brumbar with Ostwind. Both units become more attractive and t2 to T4 becomes easier...

The problem with Wer T4 is that it has very expensive very specialized units so you are either left without AI or AT. Allowing cheap ostwind for AI and expensive Panther for AT should work...


You are correct in diagnosing that the biggest issue with T4 is that it contains only expensive, specialist units.

However, if you bring the Brumbar and the Stug together on the same tier, nobody will ever build the other tier; no matter what the other tier contains.

27 Sep 2016, 12:26 PM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12978 | Subs: 1

In coh1 Panther was a Tank in coh2 Panther is hybrid Tank and TD.
27 Sep 2016, 12:30 PM
#16
avatar of Bob Pontes

Posts: 42

Target tables.
27 Sep 2016, 12:30 PM
#17
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677


You are correct in diagnosing that the biggest issue with T4 is that it contains only expensive, specialist units.

However, if you bring the Brumbar and the Stug together on the same tier, nobody will ever build the other tier; no matter what the other tier contains.


Stug and Su-76 are over performing while Ostwind is under performing. Stug should be toned down while Ostwind should have its minimum range removed and/or its moving accuracy improved and/or add suppression to its pintal mg.

After swamping the units they should be rebalanced.
27 Sep 2016, 12:33 PM
#18
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

panther can't hit anything. Increase its accuracy (especially on the move) and its fine.


Keep in mind that 0.5 accuracy on move isn't good but Blitzkrieg makes in 100%. Something for something.
27 Sep 2016, 12:35 PM
#19
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677



Keep in mind that 0.5 accuracy on move isn't good but Blitzkrieg makes in 100%. Something for something.


No it does not:
1)Blitzkrieg
-25% received accuracy, +35% speed, +60% acceleration.(*-25% received accuracy, +15% speed, +30% acceleration for Tiger and Panther tanks ONLY)

even if it provided accuracy it would not work that way 0.5*1.5=0.75

2)Combat Blitz
+100% accuracy, -50% received accuracy, +40% speed.

Combat Blitz does provide accuracy...
27 Sep 2016, 12:49 PM
#20
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Sep 2016, 12:35 PMMyself


No it does not:
1)Blitzkrieg
-25% received accuracy, +35% speed, +60% acceleration.(*-25% received accuracy, +15% speed, +30% acceleration for Tiger and Panther tanks ONLY)
2)Combat Blitz
+100% accuracy, -50% received accuracy, +40% speed.

even if it provided accuracy it would not work that way 0.5*1.5=0.75


Well, that's why I never understood all of these +% if it's just adding or multiplying or something else :P
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