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Hans banning Ivan

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21 Jul 2013, 00:28 AM
#1
avatar of lDaveTankl

Posts: 173

I would like to put in a forum topic my disgust and great concern for a player having another player banned from the game with seemingly no evidence at all except his word. Not even allowing the person who got banned to defend himself in anyway or challenge the accusation.
Where do such childish and immature actions end? Someone gets upset because they lose a game so gets the other banned? As far as I was aware the only action deserving a ban was proven and confirmed cheating. If this is not the case then what kind of dictatorship is being run here? It seems completely unfair and unreasonable and not something that I wish to be engaging with in any way.
21 Jul 2013, 01:39 AM
#2
avatar of HelpingHans
Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 1827 | Subs: 17

I would like to put in a forum topic my disgust and great concern for a player having another player banned from the game with seemingly no evidence at all except his word. Not even allowing the person who got banned to defend himself in anyway or challenge the accusation.
Where do such childish and immature actions end? Someone gets upset because they lose a game so gets the other banned? As far as I was aware the only action deserving a ban was proven and confirmed cheating. If this is not the case then what kind of dictatorship is being run here? It seems completely unfair and unreasonable and not something that I wish to be engaging with in any way.


Vonivan has been temporarily banned for his behavior towards me. I have asked him to stop but he refuses to do so. Therefore I asked one the community managers to look into this matter for me and he determined that a ban should be given. If vonivan stops after the ban he can go on playing as usual but if not he will most likely get another ban. If you didn't know, Vonivan and his 'groupies' have been constantly stalking and harassing me every time I try to stream. He tries to make it his personal mission to make my life miserable with trolling and trying to humiliate me in front of the community on my stream and on this site with his petty replays saying I suck or this, that and the other. Evidence for these offences can be seen on this site and on past vods. So now that you know, do you think in all honesty that these offences are not ban worthy? Would you rather the relic community admins sit by and watch as their players got harassed? Just think how badly this would effect the community if nothing was done? Put yourself in my shoes for a change. It's alright for you, your not the one being targeted...
21 Jul 2013, 02:19 AM
#3
avatar of MW.(YrU$

Posts: 78

hey hans, I understand VonIvan can be annoying as fuck, but trolling and pride-posting has never been such a bannable offense, why is it now? why it wasn't when was Krebs the stalked one? Why it was fun back then and is not fun now?
21 Jul 2013, 02:31 AM
#4
avatar of Champism

Posts: 32

humiliate you ? how by beating you on your stream??? should he have let you win or something i dont get it.
21 Jul 2013, 03:09 AM
#5
avatar of undostrescuatro

Posts: 525

humiliate you ? how by beating you on your stream??? should he have let you win or something i dont get it.


sigh. toxic behaviour adds nothing to this comunity. and no is not just that. i dont even care who hans is. but i have seen the other player coments. they are borderline inmature.

on a side note. i do consider hans to over react. why is this guy i dont know his name but know his posts the center of atention here?

21 Jul 2013, 03:15 AM
#6
avatar of Budwise
Admin Red  Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2061 | Subs: 2

Lets be honest, the only person who got VonIvan banned is VonIvan. He was asked to stop, he was given chances, thats kinda how it works.
21 Jul 2013, 03:57 AM
#7
avatar of Bryan

Posts: 405

Unfortunately you'll get this if you stream publicly and react to trolling. I can certainly emphathise with Hans and agree with the ban if relic looked into it and went through the appropriate procedure/channels. Just cause it is the internet, you don't get a free pass to harass people.

But, I do think from what I have seeing, Hans could have perhaps dealt with it better himself. But hey, you live and learn. It did seem to be going OTT and I can certainly understand why Relic stepped in. But now that relic have done it once, they could be opening the floodgates for themselves, plenty of dubious behavior abound in any game and companies with much more resources have struggled with this issue.

Just a practical concern.

21 Jul 2013, 05:14 AM
#8
avatar of GeneralHell
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 1560

In case you guys didn't know.. Talking shit to other players in-game is not allowed by Relic. People used to get warnings and suspensions for the same things in vCoH. Hans had every right to report him. Relic decided that he was right, and gave VonIvan a suspension. Ivan had it coming..
21 Jul 2013, 05:34 AM
#9
avatar of nwglfls

Posts: 220

Imagine someone humiliate you, someone deserve it, you guys should think it when this kind of stuff happens to yourself
21 Jul 2013, 07:15 AM
#11
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 922

Here's my opinion with how bans should occur.

Forum/community

A ban on the forums should occur if they

  • Harass people multiple times
  • Are a nuisance on the forums


Which sounds fair enough in vonIvan's case, but I think banning from the game itself (especially so long) would need one of these things to happen.

  • Cheating
  • Being extremely annoying (through chat, and by extremely, I mean to the point where it causes people to quit (EDIT: No longer want to play ever)) IN GAME through the program itself. Keep in mind griefing like Stag spamming or strafe spamming DOES NOT COUNT here.


If it happens outside the program (like say, on Twitch), then it's outside the program. No conditions were broken when using the program so hence, a ban here is not warranted.

My concern about this is, considering the scale of the punishment, it seems Over the Top.
21 Jul 2013, 08:44 AM
#12
avatar of StephennJF

Posts: 934

I am friends with both parties involved in this conflict and hate seeing such disputes, however wish to voice my opinion so both can see my view on this silly dispute.

VonIvan, along with the CoHEXPERTS can be annoying in how they proceed with their actions sometimes. I do not know of Hans specific encounters but any harassment in-game in the form of verbal abuse should not be tolerated by Relic under any circumstances. If such actions have be made by VonIvan he deserves the ban.

In VonIvan's defence though, actions such as stream sniping and pride posting should not be considered bannable actions under harassment. Even stream cheating in my opinion should not warrant a ban from playing Company of Heroes 2. These are the risks you must willingly accept if you want to stream and you must accept it. You have no choice in the matter as a streamer. Such warrants for a ban set an extremely poor precedent, especially since you may consider someone to be stream sniping but the automatch just naturally matches you against the individual. The comments which are present on the replay thread, along with in-game chat though should be deemed for Relic moderation aswell. If they are abusive, a ban should be associated with it.

Humiliation is a touchy area to claim aswell. If you lose does it really matter? Your always going to lose sometimes. There are players that consistantly stream snipe me, beat me consistantly, post the replays but I don't feel any form of hatred or revenge against them. I fail to see how this is an issue, unless the replay thread chat is abusive then after a prolong fued I may react in a similar manner to Hans.

Large scale public humiliation (I won't name the member but I am aware of the situation that involved public hate messages from both sides) is something I believe you have committed in the past aswell Hans. Under this precedent should you be banned aswell? I don't think you deserve a ban in this situation, you are a great member of the community Hans. However I can not help but see similarities with this event, except the fued between VonIvan and Hans has dragged on indefinitely.

Either way I hope a proper solution is found. For the sake of the community and two friends on opposite sides :(
21 Jul 2013, 08:58 AM
#13
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2782 | Subs: 6

Stephennnnn for a president MVGame
21 Jul 2013, 09:18 AM
#14
avatar of kafrion

Posts: 367

Agreed with both Stephenn and hubewa , what would be wrong is that ivan didnt get the chance to defend himself ( dont know though if he was given one ) .

In case you guys didn't know.. Talking shit to other players in-game is not allowed by Relic. People used to get warnings and suspensions for the same things in vCoH. Hans had every right to report him. Relic decided that he was right, and gave VonIvan a suspension. Ivan had it coming..


Cmon generallh since when did MVGame and noob calling become a "capital offence" deserving ban , last thing we want in the community is some e-vigilante provoking the trolls resulting in more trolling . And TBH harrasive and abusive behaviour is one that can't be avoided , as i have stated you can always not give a fuck and go on about your life . I cant beleive i am defending cohexperts but they havnt wronged me or the majority of the community / playerbase so a bann seems an overkill to me .

FFS with all this ban talk , can someone explain to me what is abussive behaviour and how is it determined for all i know its all subjective to ones judgement therefore a really unreliable criterion to decide long term punishment .

And if someone is accusing another player as a cheater without good cause other than previous personal dislike ( well desrved or not ) then what is that if not abbusive behaviour .
21 Jul 2013, 09:27 AM
#15
avatar of Spanky
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1563 | Subs: 2

Yea steph, i have to agree with your post aswell!
21 Jul 2013, 09:30 AM
#16
avatar of cr4wler

Posts: 1164

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2013, 09:18 AMkafrion
Agreed with both Stephenn and hubewa , what would be wrong is that ivan didnt get the chance to defend himself ( dont know though if he was given one ) .



Cmon generallh since when did MVGame and noob calling become a "capital offence" deserving ban , last thing we want in the community is some e-vigilante provoking the trolls resulting in more trolling . And TBH harrasive and abusive behaviour is one that can't be avoided , as i have stated you can always not give a fuck and go on about your life . I cant beleive i am defending cohexperts but they havnt wronged me or the majority of the community / playerbase so a bann seems an overkill to me .

FFS with all this ban talk , can someone explain to me what is abussive behaviour and how is it determined for all i know its all subjective to ones judgement therefore a really unreliable criterion to decide long term punishment .

And if someone is accusing another player as a cheater without good cause other than previous personal dislike ( well desrved or not ) then what is that if not abbusive behaviour .


what you guys need to get into your head is: you didn't see half of the harass hans had to endure. you didn't watch his stream 24/7, you didn't see all the in-game chat, you didn't see all the invisibled threads and posts and shouts.

about getting a chance to defend yourself...
you think that every maphacker/synchacker/whatever should be given a chance to defend himself too? :-D

"oh, i just synchacked this guy cause my cat died last week and i was feeling sad :-("
"well, okay then, no ban."

?!?!?

if you do something that is considered banworthy, you might get banned. simple as that.
21 Jul 2013, 09:31 AM
#17
avatar of muzec

Posts: 28

all i know is if you could get banned from an rts game for having a rivalry, there would be no pro scene on Sc2. i mean rivalries are what drive people to perform, to cause people to have favorite players etc. If you ban good players from the game like this, but at the same time relic wants the game to be a part of esports scene? cannot happen. Also i agree with Stephenn in the fact that Hans has committed such offenses before, so if one person gets banned for such reason.. then all should get banned :D
21 Jul 2013, 09:54 AM
#18
avatar of WiFiDi
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3293

remember the commercial about messing with Sasquatch? Yea don't do that or you might have bad things happen to you. :P

21 Jul 2013, 10:02 AM
#19
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 922

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Jul 2013, 09:30 AMcr4wler


what you guys need to get into your head is: you didn't see half of the harass hans had to endure. you didn't watch his stream 24/7, you didn't see all the in-game chat, you didn't see all the invisibled threads and posts and shouts.

about getting a chance to defend yourself...
you think that every maphacker/synchacker/whatever should be given a chance to defend himself too? :-D

"oh, i just synchacked this guy cause my cat died last week and i was feeling sad :-("
"well, okay then, no ban."

?!?!?

if you do something that is considered banworthy, you might get banned. simple as that.


1) Yes, they do. Anyone can appeal. Even Relic only used the banhammer on when it was obvious. But the example you gave was a strawman.
2) Then can we see the supposed chat so that we can make up our minds, rather than us making assumptions?

I don't think it's particularly a secret on this site that the admins don't like COHEXPERTS (I'm not a member of any clan BTW, but it's pretty obvious what's going on here) and that's fair enough because they do troll a lot and have their banter so their dislike is somewhat justified. Forum warnings + bans from forum = fine, but that doesn't mean you take someone out completely from the game.
21 Jul 2013, 10:18 AM
#20
avatar of PaperPlane

Posts: 173

The amount of ignorant people in this community, dear god. As said earlier, if you were in Hans position you woulnd't saying these things. It's the internet,I'm aware of that but constantly harassing someone is just plain dumb. After all he is stil human, right? And the rules of our society still stands. Ivan did this to himself and got what he deserved.
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