I cannot remmeber how many axis tears ranting on the forum avre first came out. It could almost one shot panthers and half hp heavies!!!! Not fair even though it couldnt even do it out of fog of war. So they nerf it into the useless piece of shit it is today but some how it is perfectly fine for the sturmtiger to be able to almost one shot 3 comets it can one shot them as well on a direct hit (might as well be one shotted because they even get crew shocked on top of it! Leaving them easy shrek clean up or panther one hit left and shocked). Can fire from fog of war. This is fine though i am sure i see almost every other game now.
"Working as intended"
A bunch of fn bullshit sturmtigers Aoe is Way too huge and does wayyyy too much dmg especially if it crew shocks after wards and fire from fog of war
Avre piece of shit takes longer to fire small aoe does shit dmg, cant fire from fog of war. Useless.
Something needs to change to one or both.
AVRE - STURMTIGER
31 Mar 2016, 16:45 PM
#1
Posts: 728
31 Mar 2016, 17:05 PM
#2
Posts: 875 | Subs: 2
"Working as intended"
31 Mar 2016, 17:12 PM
#3
Posts: 1072
AVRE reloads faster, way better acceleration/deceleration, more armor, more health, faster rotation rate, reloads automatically and on the move and isn't vulnerable while reloading...
All these things are tradeoffs when comparing it with the sturmtiger. Both are excellent. Sturm tiger is more lethal while the avre has better SURVIVABILITY and mobility.
All these things are tradeoffs when comparing it with the sturmtiger. Both are excellent. Sturm tiger is more lethal while the avre has better SURVIVABILITY and mobility.
31 Mar 2016, 17:19 PM
#4
Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1
perfect example of good assymmetrical balance. (even if i personally dislike every oneshoot mechanic, but relic has decided that it is a core part about coh2)
both units are in a good spot.
both units are in a good spot.
31 Mar 2016, 17:23 PM
#5
Posts: 587
45 Range out of LoS oneshots are insane and should not be in coh2.
Sturmtiger is probably OP even, but considering it's craptastic commander and price, it's "balanced" in that way.
I don't like it tho.
Sturmtiger is probably OP even, but considering it's craptastic commander and price, it's "balanced" in that way.
I don't like it tho.
Being bad at the game isn't something balance patches can fix.
31 Mar 2016, 17:24 PM
#6
Posts: 728
AVRE reloads faster, way better acceleration/deceleration, more armor, more health, faster rotation rate, reloads automatically and on the move and isn't vulnerable while reloading...
All these things are tradeoffs when comparing it with the sturmtiger. Both are excellent. Sturm tiger is more lethal while the avre has better SURVIVABILITY and mobility.
what good is that when it does shit dmg and the aoe is small so you have to be pretty precise you would have to be brain dead to get hit by an avre shell. especially a vehicle. yeah it can rotate but they can see the turrent moving? which just warns them ok its turning to fire this way.. move..? i guess it can hit okw trucks? but that would take 3 shells with them not repairing or defending it? The trade offs are terrible and nobody is going to reload the sturm until it is behind enemy lines? Its not even good at hitting fn at guns really other than big pak others can just move or retreat before it fires most the time.
31 Mar 2016, 18:43 PM
#7
Posts: 102
Makes me laugh they nerfed the crap out of the allies precision strike abilties and the B4 and then they give OKW a mobile B4 with precision strike. Great logic relic.
31 Mar 2016, 19:06 PM
#8
Posts: 465
well to be fair AVRE is nly 140 fuel. well worth it in that case.
1. Relic bans, not me. 2. It stands in the rules: If you are banned more often, the duration increase and can lead in the end to permaban 3. The Case is bigger as you guys think. So pls step 1 step away pls. 4. I am not a player in the 4vs4 cup, because of RL work.
31 Mar 2016, 19:09 PM
#9
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
Sturmtiger > AVRE
All AVRE's pros mean nothing when compare to Sturmtiger's range.
All AVRE's pros mean nothing when compare to Sturmtiger's range.
31 Mar 2016, 19:21 PM
#10
Posts: 207
I think they need to increase the turret rotation of the AVRE and have the shot fire with less delay once the turret is on target that way the enemy wont be able to get away as quickly as for the sturmtiger I think it is balanced right now because it has plenty of disadvantages that the AVRE doesn't such as hit points,rate of fire,having to stop to reload,price,lack of a turret and an extremely loud engine that you can hear from the fog of war seriously it sounds like someone threw a wrench in their with all the rattling that engine makes.
31 Mar 2016, 19:21 PM
#11
Posts: 1072
what good is that when it does shit dmg and the aoe is small so you have to be pretty precise you would have to be brain dead to get hit by an avre shell. especially a vehicle. yeah it can rotate but they can see the turrent moving? which just warns them ok its turning to fire this way.. move..? i guess it can hit okw trucks? but that would take 3 shells with them not repairing or defending it? The trade offs are terrible and nobody is going to reload the sturm until it is behind enemy lines? Its not even good at hitting fn at guns really other than big pak others can just move or retreat before it fires most the time.
The fact you have to move back to base to reload sturmtiger even further increased the reload time. Avre can fire ~two shots for every one sturmtiger shot. You can dodge the sturms tiger shot as well unless you're camping hard and don't have LOS.
Its AOE isn't small at all. Its excellent for wiping blobs, ISGs, mortars, paks etc. If you have a hard time killing paks with AVRE you're doing it wrong.
31 Mar 2016, 19:31 PM
#12
1 Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4
I prefer AVRE. AVRE is better at dealing with infantry due to faster speed, reload, and it shoots faster. British already have strong AT units, it synchronizes well with other tanks.
The Sturmtiger is really good, but whenever I use it I hate the doctrine it is in. It comes out so late and has no call-in infantry or useful abilities besides the HEAT rounds. Taking the AVRE doctrine is a much safer choice.
The Sturmtiger is really good, but whenever I use it I hate the doctrine it is in. It comes out so late and has no call-in infantry or useful abilities besides the HEAT rounds. Taking the AVRE doctrine is a much safer choice.
Tobis "Complete Throw"
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
31 Mar 2016, 20:44 PM
#13
Posts: 5279
Makes me laugh they nerfed the crap out of the allies precision strike abilties and the B4 and then they give OKW a mobile B4 with precision strike. Great logic relic.
to be fair all you had to do with the b4 to make it OP was:
sink 600mp into a static, squishy howitzer
pray to RNG that it hits at some point until it gets to vet 1
then sink 90MU into it until vet 3
find a static unit
rotate B4
hope unit is still there after the 11 min rotation (per degree of rotation)
recon
activate ability (idr the cost, but i believe it was more expensive than the okw valiant assault AND had a debuff)
use another 90mu to fire (again hoping the enemy still hasnt moved)
profit
all while ensuring the enemy didnt kill your crew or you would have to start over, but hey! it was the unit not the enemies inability to target it while its gaining vet... or you know... moving their units.....(if you know its keep on the move...)
so they killed the unit!
its ok tho because sturm tiger and stuka still exist to make sure that one shots are a thing of the past!
#lelic #consistancy #nerfhammer #stalinwept
#stalinwept
31 Mar 2016, 20:58 PM
#14
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
The AVRE problem, is that without current turret lock options it has to remain under fire for long periods of time to fire. This becomes a real issue because the target it is trying to hit is trying to avoid it. The AVRE should retain a mechanism to lock the turret.
For a unit that requires player input to control the main gun firing, it should require user input to control the main gun rotation too.
ST is more niche than AVRE, but the ability to shoot further than LoS and through objects is literally devastating if it connects just once in a game.
For a unit that requires player input to control the main gun firing, it should require user input to control the main gun rotation too.
ST is more niche than AVRE, but the ability to shoot further than LoS and through objects is literally devastating if it connects just once in a game.
1 Apr 2016, 04:19 AM
#15
Posts: 181
Both the AVRE and Sturmtiger (And B4, Stuka Bomb etc.) are poorly designed for a game based around unit preservation, but the Sturmtiger is the stand-out offender. Let's look at some stats:
The major balancing factor to the Sturmtiger is clearly its active reload. Without that, its downsides are fairly minor (less health, slightly higher cost) compared to its utility and vet-deletion abilities.
Reworking both the AVRE and the Sturmtiger to rely less on random wipes is something I'd like to see.
| Stat | AVRE | Sturmtiger |
| Damage | 440 | 640 |
| Penetration | 150 | 1000 |
| Actions on Penetration | None | Against Bridges: - Automatic Destruction Against Vehicles: - 40% chance of Crew Shock - 30% chance of Engine Damage - 20% chance of Immobilisation (lose treads or wheels) - 10% chance of Destroy Main Gun |
| Deflection Damage Multiplier | 0.5 | 0.5 |
| Actions on Deflection | Against Vehicles: - 25% chance of Crew Shock - 75% chance of No Critical | Against Vehicles: - 25% chance of Crew Shock - 75% chance of No Critical |
| Range (Max/Min) | 35/15 | 45/15 |
| AOE Distance (Max/Far/Middle/Near) | 8/8/4/2 | 8/8/6/2 |
| AOE Damage (Far/Middle/Near) | 0.1/0.5/1 | 0.3/1/1 |
| AOE Damage for Buildings (Far/Middle/Near) | 0.0077/1/1 | 1/1/1 |
| Target Tables? | 1.45 damage multiplier against building type units | 0.75 damage multiplier against production_building type units |
| Reload Time | 50 seconds, passive | 50 seconds, active lockdown |
| Health | 1400 | 1280 |
| Armour (Front/Rear) | 240/120 | 220/110 |
| Cost (Manpower/Fuel) | 600/140 | 560/160 |
| Pop Cost | 18 | 18 |
The major balancing factor to the Sturmtiger is clearly its active reload. Without that, its downsides are fairly minor (less health, slightly higher cost) compared to its utility and vet-deletion abilities.
Reworking both the AVRE and the Sturmtiger to rely less on random wipes is something I'd like to see.
I think a good rule for balance suggestions is this:
"If you can't personally mod it in and you haven't met anyone who has, don't suggest it."
"If you can't personally mod it in and you haven't met anyone who has, don't suggest it."
1 Apr 2016, 06:18 AM
#16
Posts: 12 | Subs: 1
perfect example of good assymmetrical balance. (even if i personally dislike every oneshoot mechanic, but relic has decided that it is a core part about coh2)
both units are in a good spot.
+1
Both are fine. The Sturmtiger´s reload time makes it probably a little weaker than the AVRE. The Sturmtiger´s doc is pretty bad at all and it has higher costs. Meanwhile the AVRE is probably not as good against vehicles, but it´s faster reload makes it stronger against inf. I would let both docs how they are.
1 Apr 2016, 07:17 AM
#17
Posts: 677
Both the AVRE and Sturmtiger (And B4, Stuka Bomb etc.) are poorly designed for a game based around unit preservation, but the Sturmtiger is the stand-out offender. Let's look at some stats:
...
Great post. If only more people took the time to actually look at stats before comparing unit balance forum would be better place.
I would like to point out, at this point, the significant bonus damage AVRE has against building type units that allow it to one shoot fortification like the Pak43 regularly.
As I have explained in another thread imo similar bonuses should probably apply to other heavy assault guns, even if at the cost of damage against other targets.
1 Apr 2016, 07:32 AM
#18
Posts: 708 | Subs: 1
Give avre vechile prefered mode back, why? It shouldn't rotate it turrent if i don't want it to do so.
1 Apr 2016, 07:36 AM
#19
Posts: 5279
+1
Both are fine. The Sturmtiger´s reload time makes it probably a little weaker than the AVRE. The Sturmtiger´s doc is pretty bad at all and it has higher costs. Meanwhile the AVRE is probably not as good against vehicles, but it´s faster reload makes it stronger against inf. I would let both docs how they are.
Elite armour is bad?
Im confused...
#stalinwept
1 Apr 2016, 09:19 AM
#20
Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17
Both the AVRE and Sturmtiger (And B4, Stuka Bomb etc.) are poorly designed for a game based around unit preservation, but the Sturmtiger is the stand-out offender. Let's look at some stats:
<stats>
The most important difference between the AVRE and the Sturmtiger is that the Sturmtiger can fire through obstacles (including ambient buildings -- just like Pak43 and the Tulips). That ability alone automatically upgrades the Sturmtiger from wipe-machine status to a monster.
Sure, you can use scout units to look ahead for the Sturmtiger in an open field. However, what units are you willing to sacrifice in a city environment, where the Sturmtiger could be lurking around just about any corner?
To me, when comparing the two units in a vacuum, the Sturmtiger is a far better unit than the AVRE. However, the unit composition of the armies is different, and they have to face different opponents:
- The AVRE is absolutely deadly against OST pakwalling
- UKF can simply make a better use of the AVRE than OKW could ever do. They have the technology (not just emergency war speed -- I leave this as an exercise to the reader)
I would like to point out, at this point, the significant bonus damage AVRE has against building type units that allow it to one shoot fortification like the Pak43 regularly.
I have never ever managed to kill a Pak43 with an AVRE; the Pak43 can fire through buildings, the AVRE cannot. However, I would never even attempt it, because there exist far safer counters:
- That Incediary Mortar ability on the same commander? It is literally the only thing it is good at
- Tulips also one-shot Pak43s if you aim them properly
You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions
Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)
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