Login

russian armor

OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken

PAGES (8)down
28 Mar 2016, 12:42 PM
#121
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

By the way, you probably don't consider vet 3 IS2 as a something special, right?

Just to let you know, to get vet 3 IS2 you need to kill 15 T34/76.
To get vet 4 CPV you need to kill 14 T34/76
28 Mar 2016, 12:47 PM
#122
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

Tho as a person just said in a post above. I can say the same thing. (Not really being able to comment on OP/UP cuz I only seen a vet 5 CP like twice ever. I've been playing nothing but okw lately and if you watch my streams, I only use the command panther doctrine. What I do know. If you got 3 panthers, then your infantry have no med. Or you had no early/mid game armour. (Stuka being crucial for OKW) The amount of fuel and time to field 3 panthers or such armour would be extream late game. Givin how allies are early mid game heavy, I find it to be GG before you get your CP to vet 2. If you get it out.

Despite everything OP posted and such, I hate to say it man, tho you do sound convincing, the CP is fine.

This is a 1 of 1 thread.
To a 1 of 1 unit.
To a unit(vet 5) that is seen less then that monster in Ireland. (That lake one)

For most people, they don't play custom matches that are checkpoints where you have to use a single bridge crossing and such.

Not to mention, for every command panther, there are what, 2 maybe 3 comets?

Focus fire it man
28 Mar 2016, 12:48 PM
#123
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

By the way, you probably don't consider vet 3 IS2 as a something special, right?

Just to let you know, to get vet 3 IS2 you need to kill 15 T34/76.
To get vet 4 CPV you need to kill 14 T34/76


I do consider it special.

Thanks for the fun fact of the day
28 Mar 2016, 12:56 PM
#124
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Oh, I just noticed you have whole 1% games as allies. No wonder why you think CPV is perfecly fine :foreveralone:
28 Mar 2016, 13:02 PM
#125
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

Tho as a person just said in a post above. I can say the same thing. (Not really being able to comment on OP/UP cuz I only seen a vet 5 CP like twice ever. I've been playing nothing but okw lately and if you watch my streams, I only use the command panther doctrine. What I do know. If you got 3 panthers, then your infantry have no med. Or you had no early/mid game armour. (Stuka being crucial for OKW) The amount of fuel and time to field 3 panthers or such armour would be extream late game. Givin how allies are early mid game heavy, I find it to be GG before you get your CP to vet 2. If you get it out.


Just to make it perfectly clear. I have never EVER EVER advised anyone to EVER build 3 Panthers. I have also never advised anyone to combine a KT with a Command Panther (somebody else mentioned that).

If you believe I have stated things differently, please quote my post. Make sure you are not misreading the context my my post (am I trying to modify somebody else's strat?).


Focus fire it man


The thing with Veterancy is if ONE guy drops the ball and feeds veterancy to said unit, everybody else in the team suffers. That's how Veterancy works, and I believe we both agree that the potency of a unit should be capped. Especially for an aura unit.


Not to mention, for every command panther, there are what, 2 maybe 3 comets?


Comets require tech and cost 500 MP, 185 Fuel. I think you must have meant 2 Cromwells. Cromwells are a bit too cost efficient, but pathing doesn't help.

Oh, I just noticed you have whole 1% games as allies. No wonder why you think CPV is perfecly fine :foreveralone:


I don't think this is relevant to this thread. This thread is mostly about an overperforming aura unit.
28 Mar 2016, 13:03 PM
#126
avatar of Domine

Posts: 500

OP is completely right about the CP. There is no need for a veterancy level like this, regardless of cost.


1) Veterancy 5 CP is op, even though hardly attainable
2) If veterancy 5 is so unattainable, why does it need to be there?

I can see no flaws in OPs argument. At vet 5 it's op, yet vet 5 is unreachable. No reason to keep vet 5.

I really cannot see any rebuttal other than 'CP at vet 5 is not OP.'
28 Mar 2016, 13:20 PM
#127
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
The problem of panther vet, the player who have vet panther in super late game (lets image game in langerska or reils and metal its 30-1,15 h game) are to strong unit for it price, all allies vet3 tanks in super late will be lose to vet 4-5 panther and dont forget about panther limit and combo with another units. I tell you why we dont see vet 5 panther so many, coz its 1 doc, game ends before panther have vet4-5, players lose vet 2-3 panther like do it Sib 2 days ago, thats all. I dont see vet 5 obers in 2016 year, its mean that there vet are fine ? free supression, speedrun, insane damage.
28 Mar 2016, 13:47 PM
#128
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

Imo the debate is going in circles....One can debate vet 5 for days, but the question remaina if aura vehicles should have the aura increased with vet.

Imo they should and C. PZ4 and UKF Command vehicles should also follow the same rule.

Imo command vehicles should have lower DPS than their counter part like Ostheer command PZ4, cost about the same, their bonus should start lower and increase with veterancy...that would make them allot easier to balance.
28 Mar 2016, 14:24 PM
#129
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

im voting for nerfing vet 4 and vet 5 command panther. why? because i never see one anyway so it will have 0 impact on the game. but atleast we discussed some pages about it
28 Mar 2016, 15:09 PM
#130
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

Oh, I just noticed you have whole 1% games as allies. No wonder why you think CPV is perfecly fine :foreveralone:


You should see what else I think. I would get banned tho :/
28 Mar 2016, 18:25 PM
#131
avatar of Intelligence209

Posts: 1124

Don't change what isn't broken, the CP has been the same since day 1. With little or no change at all. OP I see and understand your well constructed points, but I simply do not agree with any change. Luckily we are all entitled to our own opinions.
28 Mar 2016, 18:49 PM
#132
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

Don't change what isn't broken, the CP has been the same since day 1. With little or no change at all. OP I see and understand your well constructed points, but I simply do not agree with any change. Luckily we are all entitled to our own opinions.



You realize that "been there from day 1" cannot possibly be a logical argument. Especially, given the recent OKW rework which completely removed the fuel penalty and made all OKW vehicles more accessible.

If you reread your argument and honestly believe it is a valid one, what would you make out of the following arguments, which might come up in the future?

- What about Maxim fast setup? It's been there since day one.
- UKF Airlanding Officer broken Heroic charge? Since day one.
- JP4 veterancy bonuses? Relic hasn't touched that unit since day one.
- Partysans spawning from buildings in enemy territory? Day one.

Just because Relic decided to throw an ability/unit in our face, it doesn't mean the bonuses have to be set in stone. Especially given that the core mechanics of the given faction have changed.
28 Mar 2016, 19:33 PM
#133
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

Btw, in case somebody else wants to watch a high-tier match that features the CP in all its broken 5-vet glory watch the following match:



- What's your assessment of the situation at minute 30:00?
- What happens at minute 45:00?
- How well do Jacksons and Fireflies stack up against Vet5 buffed Volks?

I've been looking for that video for ages. I didn't realise I could just ask FestiveLongJohns for the link :)
28 Mar 2016, 20:17 PM
#134
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

Nicely illustrates not only the command panther vet problems but how the command panther doesn't really vet slowly when used right with concentrated fire.

It also sadly shows that the jackson is just in an odd spot as a counter to the panther.

I thought assbag and talisman had that. Good watch tough :)
28 Mar 2016, 20:38 PM
#135
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

By the way, you probably don't consider vet 3 IS2 as a something special, right?

Just to let you know, to get vet 3 IS2 you need to kill 15 T34/76.
To get vet 4 CPV you need to kill 14 T34/76


Just a small consideration. While it takes a while to vet, reminder that vet units give more xp than vet0 units (20% for each lvl of vet IIRC). So while it would still take a lot of time, with good unit preservation of both sides, those requirements goes down.

Btw, in case somebody else wants to watch a high-tier match that features the CP in all its broken 5-vet glory watch the following match:


I'll say it shows how broken 50% damage modifier is (2shot Jackson) rather than the power of vet5. Also it could been worst with an earlier command PIV on the mix (thus aura affecting allies should be weaker IMO)

What should be changed:

-Across the board, aura effects on allied teammates is reduced by 50%. FHQ, heroic charge, command vehicle, command PIV, command PV, Officers, commisar (if it's ever released), etc.

-Command PV should see it's CP requirement go up. With the current price of vehicles and teching, either combat performance should go down (aura veterancy replacing combat vet) or price go up a bit.

-Regarding infantry getting affected, i'll rather reduce vet0 range of aura between command PIV levels
and actual levels, and make it vet5 a 100% effect on allies an slightly increased aura range to what is it now.
28 Mar 2016, 20:52 PM
#136
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

It also sadly shows that the jackson is just in an odd spot as a counter to the panther.

I thought assbag and talisman had that. Good watch tough :)


IMO they didn't make the transition or adapted to opponents late late game comp. I thought they could close the game at some points but they slowly started to lose tanks to the poke of the Panthers. SO many MGs were dead weight with Stuka/PW and so much light cover. I'll rather see a mix of piats/zooks against that number of PVs.
28 Mar 2016, 22:25 PM
#137
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

what happened at minute 30.00 and 45.00?
29 Mar 2016, 00:23 AM
#138
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17


I'll say it shows how broken 50% damage modifier is (2shot Jackson) rather than the power of vet5. Also it could been worst with an earlier command PIV on the mix (thus aura affecting allies should be weaker IMO)


That's true, and I agree with this analysis. However, I would have liked to, at least have the community acknowledge that there is, indeed, an issue with the Command Panther. It seems that a sizeable part of the community still believes that the CP is fine, and that we shouldn't touch what's not broken.

If you notice carefully, there are some nice low-key moments that illustrate the CP aura brokenness though:
- The schreck snipes at 54:00
- The Panther snipe at 59:00


What should be changed:

-Across the board, aura effects on allied teammates is reduced by 50%. FHQ, heroic charge, command vehicle, command PIV, command PV, Officers, commisar (if it's ever released), etc.


Initially I was a bit more hardline on auras affecting allied units. However, I think I like your suggestion a lot better. At least this will help keep not-so-combat capable units into the meta (i.e., P4 command tank).


-Command PV should see it's CP requirement go up. With the current price of vehicles and teching, either combat performance should go down (aura veterancy replacing combat vet) or price go up a bit.


Ideally, yes. There should be SOME trade-off involved when choosing between the CP and a normal Panther. With the current cost-to-performance ratio, I would be completely insane to ever field a normal Panther, when I could field the CP.


-Regarding infantry getting affected, i'll rather reduce vet0 range of aura between command PIV levels
and actual levels, and make it vet5 a 100% effect on allies an slightly increased aura range to what is it now.


This is a good start. At least it will make the CP a bit more vulnerable, as it will have to be a bit closer to the frontline. However, I'm a still a bit concerned about the Vet4 range bonus.

Basically, every advantage that the long-range low-armoured Allied TDs are supposed to have over Panthers is negated by the combination of the Range buff (Vet4) and the Sight buff (Vet0) that affected units receive.

In fact, the current Vet4 aura looks like a better version of the vehicle-half of USF Combined Arms ability (Pershing commander). Since USF has to pay a good amount of munitions to have this ability activated (125 Munitions for 30 secs), it might be a bit unfair to have a unit that provides these bonuses as a passive ability.

For reference:
Combined Arms (125 Munitions, 30 secs)

"Infantry: -20% Reload +30% Accuracy, +35% sight
Vehicle: +35% sight, -30% Reload, +5 range"

(Varunax recently discovered that it's bugged, and the bonuses of Combined Arms overwrite veterancy buffs. e.g.,, a vet3 Pershing in the aura will fire slower than outside the aura. That's a different issue though)
29 Mar 2016, 00:54 AM
#139
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959

There is a reason we all see a Command Panther in 12 out of 10 OKW games,

similar to when Centuar or Croc were OP when we used to see them in every single game of brits.

As a matter of fact, when a Unit is OP or extremely strong, you see that unit more often in the game (like the T34/76 at its current state! Kappa :foreveralone: )

If the Command Panther wasn't OP (with all its aura and vet bonuses) you wouldn't see that in all OKW games

29 Mar 2016, 01:09 AM
#140
avatar of CookiezNcreem
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15

If you let command panther get vet 4-5 you deserve to get bodied.

where its 1v1, or 5v5. Cpanther isnt like OKW infantry where they get vet 5 from simply breathing.

It takes some serious screw ups/throws by the allies or some amazing panther driving by the axis player.

even then, Ive yet to see one outside of cheatmod.
PAGES (8)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

412 users are online: 1 member and 411 guests
DAZ187
0 post in the last 24h
9 posts in the last week
59 posts in the last month
Registered members: 46378
Welcome our newest member, DiazNickolas
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM