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russian armor

Revitalizing the Soviets and giving more Risk v. Reward

15 Jan 2016, 09:02 AM
#21
avatar of TAKTCOM

Posts: 275 | Subs: 1


So you saw that I liked the idea of a more diverse Soviets...

Yep. It will be good. I do not believe that it happened, but it would be good. Also I do not understand what in Ostrupen&Pz.III bad. Just imagine, every game Germans have two squads for each allies squad, and two or three tanks for each allies tank. German harass everywhere. MASSACRE. :romeoMug:
15 Jan 2016, 09:19 AM
#22
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Just give the long-range role to Penals so they have a more distinctly than being better Conscripts with a lack of utility.


But then who gets the awesome SVT-40? Only the Assault Guards would have it, and they'd only have 2. I'd miss my PUP PUP PUP shooties :(
15 Jan 2016, 09:38 AM
#23
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13



But then who gets the awesome SVT-40? Only the Assault Guards would have it, and they'd only have 2. I'd miss my PUP PUP PUP shooties :(


Then let Penal SVT be good at range just like in my mod. Who cares about the aesthetic when semi-auto G43s or M1 Garands can outshoot the majority of Soviet small-arm bolt-actions at range :P
15 Jan 2016, 09:50 AM
#24
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Then let Penal SVT be good at range just like in my mod. Who cares about the aesthetic when semi-auto G43s or M1 Garands can outshoot the majority of Soviet small-arm bolt-actions at range :P


But that goes against the (admittedly wonky and inconsistent) design goals of the Bolt-Actions being better at long range and Semi-Autos being better at mid range. Actually, I think the SVT is the only example of this dynamic working as intended, since Riflemen have no bolt-action counterpart within their own army, and G43's are a munitions upgrade.
15 Jan 2016, 09:53 AM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8



But that goes against the (admittedly wonky and inconsistent) design goals of the Bolt-Actions being better at long range and Semi-Autos being better at mid range. Actually, I think the SVT is the only example of this dynamic working as intended, since Riflemen have no bolt-action counterpart within their own army, and G43's are a munitions upgrade.


That concept is as dead as it can be.
It died the moment WFA was released, just like the concept of needing engineer to build structures or having to pay for side upgrades to get them(I'm looking at you OKW).

There is absolutely nothing that would prevent SVTs profile being mirrored to garand.
15 Jan 2016, 10:56 AM
#26
avatar of carloff

Posts: 301

Revitalizing the Soviets and giving more Risk v. Reward
Did you meand giving more mp bleed v. no chanse?

On my view cons lack damage on all levels. So only good thing to them is buff their damage output in vet 2 and vet 3.

Soviet crews need only work on thier spread out thing. 99% they are in mm with each other. Maybe some defence buff after vet 3.

Penals, huh. They are dead end unit. Seriously, they don't scale into late game.

About Bed-spring armor. What kind of grade it is if you losing 1 level of veterancy on most shitty tank?
15 Jan 2016, 17:05 PM
#27
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Weapon teams that can defend themselves effectively and beefy tanks being resistant to disables are bad ideas. The idea of trading vet for promotions is an interesting one though.

Overall though, Soviets aren't bad and the game is getting close to acceptable balance. The only things Soviets really need are effective penals and something with T4 to make the Soviets less doctrine reliant. A complete overhaul at this point though just isn't really an option.


Basically this.
15 Jan 2016, 21:33 PM
#28
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jan 2016, 09:53 AMKatitof



There is absolutely nothing that would prevent SVTs profile being mirrored to garand.


Non doc flame rifles with 1 extra garand for 270 mp? Shit idea, im sorry.
15 Jan 2016, 21:38 PM
#29
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jan 2016, 07:11 AMTAKTCOM

Yeah, they just spammers. Imagine for a moment, thet Ostroopen is main-line german infantry and grens/pz.grens available only in doc, and you main stock tank is T4 cheap Pz.III from 1942.:megusta:

WORTH IT
15 Jan 2016, 21:40 PM
#30
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8



Non doc flame rifles with 1 extra garand for 270 mp? Shit idea, im sorry.


With no nades, no smoke, no AT capabilities, incomparably weaker tank support, weaker AT support, arriving on field much later and being much more squishy due to vet3 being nothing extraordinary defensively.

Different armies, different units.
What works with one, doesn't automatically mean it will work exactly the same way in another.
15 Jan 2016, 21:44 PM
#31
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jan 2016, 21:40 PMKatitof


With no nades, no smoke, no AT capabilities, incomparably weaker tank support, weaker AT support, arriving on field much later and being much more squishy due to vet3 being nothing extraordinary defensively.

Different armies, different units.
What works with one, doesn't automatically mean it will work exactly the same way in another.
Considering penals get 60% better accuracy with vet, having oorah at vet 2 flamers, 6 men. And being better than a base rifle squad with garand profile. That sounds OP as fuck. Weaker AT support is a myth. Zis and su76s are not bad just because they aren't panthers.

And if penals are squishy, then I guess most german inf is squishy too. 6 man rifles with flamethrower non doc is a terrible idea. Open ur eyes.
15 Jan 2016, 21:45 PM
#32
avatar of easierwithaturret

Posts: 247

Weapon teams that can defend themselves effectively and beefy tanks being resistant to disables are bad ideas. The idea of trading vet for promotions is an interesting one though.

Overall though, Soviets aren't bad and the game is getting close to acceptable balance. The only things Soviets really need are effective penals and something with T4 to make the Soviets less doctrine reliant. A complete overhaul at this point though just isn't really an option.


This. Make the t34/85 non-doctrinal, give the su-85 a slight survivability buff, give penals a more specialised role and that will go a long way towards opening up more options to soviet players.
15 Jan 2016, 21:50 PM
#33
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Penals are not great but they are also far away from being useless, especially on maps like Trois-Ponts, City 17, Lierneux etc. but on Minsk Pocekt, Stepes, Outskirts they do nothing (but I guess it's all right, I mean adapt to map).
But going for Penals usually means you need to go for T2 (it's hard to rely on rushed SU-76 these days, sometimes it's better to get ZiS).
And if you go for T2, you probably won't go for T4 and rather wait for ISU, IS, KVs.

The only thing I'd changed is T4. Move T34/76 as a double call in for 450MP 150F at 7-8CPs in place of T34/85, which will become non doctrinal T4.
15 Jan 2016, 21:57 PM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8

Considering penals get 60% better accuracy with vet, having oorah at vet 2 flamers, 6 men. And being better than a base rifle squad with garand profile. That sounds OP as fuck. Weaker AT support is a myth. Zis and su76s are not bad just because they aren't panthers.

And if penals are squishy, then I guess most german inf is squishy too. 6 man rifles with flamethrower non doc is a terrible idea. Open ur eyes.


And how OP sounds 6 men squad with grenadier(which is more then con DPS) DPS with ability to buy weapons for close/mid range and pretty good accuracy vet on axis side with allied weapons being designed to fight 4-5 men squads?

Yet pfussiliers aren't OP.

Plus, flamer could be replaced with DP or PTRS, hardly OP this way.
15 Jan 2016, 22:50 PM
#35
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jan 2016, 21:57 PMKatitof


And how OP sounds 6 men squad with grenadier(which is more then con DPS) DPS with ability to buy weapons for close/mid range and pretty good accuracy vet on axis side with allied weapons being designed to fight 4-5 men squads?

Yet pfussiliers aren't OP.

Plus, flamer could be replaced with DP or PTRS, hardly OP this way.

What?

You are starting to sound hysterical now.

Edit: ok I wait ur talking about panzerfussiliers. Is this a problem that panzerfussiliers for 290mp and 90 muni can beat conscripts? Even with a cost that very near to 280mp 120muni american and brit squads they don't come close.

Besides, even for 6 men they get -23% rec acc at vet 3 I think. That isn't as high as vet 3 conscripts, rifles, or sections. Panzerfussiliers are good, but statistically they aren't the god unit you believe them to be.

I mean if you think panzerfussiliers are OP, got no clue why you don't see that non doc 6 man flame rifle squad with oorah would be OP just because they don't have frags or smoke or elite infantry durability liek riflemen.

Theres really nothing more I can point out.
15 Jan 2016, 23:08 PM
#36
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17896 | Subs: 8

I sound hysterical?

Its not me who shit bricks the moment the sole thought of soviet non doctrinal infantry that would be able to not be steamrolled over long range occurs.

Also, I'm avid pfussilier user, I know what they are capable of with and without sturm officer, suppression counters them better then it counters general infantry, they are powerful, but not overpowering and neither would be penals in that role.
15 Jan 2016, 23:33 PM
#37
avatar of Flying Dustbin

Posts: 270 | Subs: 1

IMO Soviets are rather balanced and fun to play.
The problems they have most are some crappy units and reliance on commanders.

Tier 1 and 4 could do with looking at. I don't see much reason to go Tier 4 because, The T-34-76 is awful, the Katyusha pales in comparison to other rocket artillery, and the SU-85 is only marginally better than the Su-76, which is cost-effective and good enough to tide you over until the big meaty call-ins
aaa
15 Jan 2016, 23:44 PM
#38
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486

I dont expect they will do all this for free. Even considering that They broke the game with buffs to almost every axis units and tiers.
16 Jan 2016, 04:15 AM
#39
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891



Non doc flame rifles with 1 extra garand for 270 mp? Shit idea, im sorry.


Penals are worse at range and bleed, plus you sacrifice team weapons. They are more like a six man RE squad with no engineering abilities but satchel and flamer.

You are right about Penals needing to be riflemen though, so they should be rifle clones but 6 men without smoke or at grenades.
16 Jan 2016, 06:34 AM
#40
avatar of TAKTCOM

Posts: 275 | Subs: 1

Penals are not great but they are also far away from being useless...

Like sov you have alot close combat option:
- first, it's CE flamethrower. They not great, but they can clean up the house or cover;
- second, cons&molotov. Some sort of you main spam forse so you have few of them anyway;
- trid, partyzans. They have nade, molotov and SMG.
- fourthly, Shock troops. A bit outdated but still effective.
- fifth, PPSH cons. Cons have some real weapon.
- At sixth. Assault guards. Something even worse than a PPSH cons, but still have SMG and nade.
So why choose penal? No reason. And you do not choose them.
Considering penals get 60% better accuracy with vet, having oorah at vet 2 flamers, 6 men. And being better than a base rifle squad with garand profile. That sounds OP as fuck.


I mean if you think panzerfussiliers are OP, got no clue why you don't see that non doc 6 man flame rifle squad with oorah would be OP just because they don't have frags or smoke or elite infantry durability liek riflemen.
Theres really nothing more I can point out.

I totally agree. Flame rifle absolutely OP, so why we just not copy-paste absolutely no OP panzerfussiliers, give penal skins (with bolt rifle) and voices?
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