i was just wondering if coh2 (1v1) was currently balanced.
if not, please explain what is causing the imbalance.
is coh2 1v1 currently balanced ?
28 Dec 2015, 15:41 PM
#1
28 Dec 2015, 15:45 PM
#2
Posts: 17891 | Subs: 8
There were graphs presented by relic recently in regards to 1v1, you can see dominance of OKW and under performance of UKF.
This means that only small changes, mainly to these two armies are needed now.
What causes them? For OKW, its definitely the volks and shrecks, late game was toned down, but early game is still extremely potent.
Brits on the other hand, early game is pretty alright, you still need to rush T2 for snipers and T3 for armor, but it is late game where they start to slow down, despite them being in theoury the bridge into allied late game with now nerfed, likely overnerfed churchills and overall hammer/anvil based choices and builds, but I don't have as much experience with brits, so that is my guestimate from playing alongside and against them as well as from watching the streams.
This means that only small changes, mainly to these two armies are needed now.
What causes them? For OKW, its definitely the volks and shrecks, late game was toned down, but early game is still extremely potent.
Brits on the other hand, early game is pretty alright, you still need to rush T2 for snipers and T3 for armor, but it is late game where they start to slow down, despite them being in theoury the bridge into allied late game with now nerfed, likely overnerfed churchills and overall hammer/anvil based choices and builds, but I don't have as much experience with brits, so that is my guestimate from playing alongside and against them as well as from watching the streams.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Dec 2015, 16:00 PM
#3
Posts: 1617
What Katitof said mostly.
If Brits can survive early-game somehow (maybe mgs?) double sniper + cromwell can carry for a while. For late-game it's about Fireflys and commandos/snipers.
OKW; I'd add the Kübel...it became an annoying little bug since rework and when it runs around the map grabbing all the point while impossible to hunt down without vehicles really kills the alied early-game. After that the Luchs comes out and finishes the job backed up by shreck bleb.
USF requires a good commander for late-game (Calliope), but they can do fine. Too bad they can't do shit vs snipers
Ostheer is in kinda dumb situation, T4 is hard to get, while T1-T2-T3 hardly works so ppl tend to go for Osttruppensb (they do 10000x better than grens) or T2 + Tiger. Tbh if it weren't for the PAks, MGs and Snipers, Ostheer would be dead.
Soviets: T1 is dead...only good for kübel hunting. T2 is viable even in late-game with Is-2, ISU-152, T34-85. Otherwise their stock armor is useless except T3 so they are still commander orinted. Cons do well behind sandbags, but don't expect much from them in late-game.
Now for the maps, some got rework but still has huge balance issues which I think causes most of the problems when 1v1 games are mentioned.
If Brits can survive early-game somehow (maybe mgs?) double sniper + cromwell can carry for a while. For late-game it's about Fireflys and commandos/snipers.
OKW; I'd add the Kübel...it became an annoying little bug since rework and when it runs around the map grabbing all the point while impossible to hunt down without vehicles really kills the alied early-game. After that the Luchs comes out and finishes the job backed up by shreck bleb.
USF requires a good commander for late-game (Calliope), but they can do fine. Too bad they can't do shit vs snipers
Ostheer is in kinda dumb situation, T4 is hard to get, while T1-T2-T3 hardly works so ppl tend to go for Osttruppensb (they do 10000x better than grens) or T2 + Tiger. Tbh if it weren't for the PAks, MGs and Snipers, Ostheer would be dead.
Soviets: T1 is dead...only good for kübel hunting. T2 is viable even in late-game with Is-2, ISU-152, T34-85. Otherwise their stock armor is useless except T3 so they are still commander orinted. Cons do well behind sandbags, but don't expect much from them in late-game.
Now for the maps, some got rework but still has huge balance issues which I think causes most of the problems when 1v1 games are mentioned.
28 Dec 2015, 16:35 PM
#4
Posts: 1024 | Subs: 1
USF vs Ostheers still is ez mode for murica, unless ost will pick ostruppen commander
Late OKW is too difficult to counter (4th vet obers who suppres, schreks blobs) and factions like sovs or usf have most problems with it.
Brits still sucks to Ostrtruppen/Sniper combo with usage lots of buildings in early/mid (and probably that's why every brits gone for croco)
Brownings spam is really difficult to counter.
That's probably it.
Late OKW is too difficult to counter (4th vet obers who suppres, schreks blobs) and factions like sovs or usf have most problems with it.
Brits still sucks to Ostrtruppen/Sniper combo with usage lots of buildings in early/mid (and probably that's why every brits gone for croco)
Brownings spam is really difficult to counter.
That's probably it.
28 Dec 2015, 18:02 PM
#5
Posts: 1164
There were graphs presented by relic recently in regards to 1v1, you can see dominance of OKW and under performance of UKF.
This means that only small changes, mainly to these two armies are needed now.
What causes them? For OKW, its definitely the volks and shrecks, late game was toned down, but early game is still extremely potent.
Brits on the other hand, early game is pretty alright, you still need to rush T2 for snipers and T3 for armor, but it is late game where they start to slow down, despite them being in theoury the bridge into allied late game with now nerfed, likely overnerfed churchills and overall hammer/anvil based choices and builds, but I don't have as much experience with brits, so that is my guestimate from playing alongside and against them as well as from watching the streams.
remember that those numbers are old now.
according to newer numbers, the balance is better than it has been at least since brit release:
with a few tiny tweaks to OKW, UKF winrates will go up slightly as well (and remember, UKF play rate is way lower atm anyways, so UKF winrate is the least reliable value in there) most likely.
since i don't play OKW at all, i can't really comment on what is the best way to go, but from community consensus and watching streams i'd say it's volks vet and/or the early capping power (so number of volks early and kübel capping) that should probably get tuned.
28 Dec 2015, 18:05 PM
#6
19 
Posts: 1295 | Subs: 1
Okw needs SMALL tweaks, brits need SMALL tweaks. dont overdoo the next patch relic PLEASE.
28 Dec 2015, 18:06 PM
#7
19 Posts: 1295 | Subs: 1
Okw needs SMALL tweaks, brits need SMALL tweaks. dont overdoo the next patch relic PLEASE.
28 Dec 2015, 18:25 PM
#8
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Yes IF we consider small amount of strats.
No IF we consider how limited some factions have to play.
No IF we consider how limited some factions have to play.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
28 Dec 2015, 20:35 PM
#9
1 Posts: 1276
- Reduce Volks base dmg back to 10 or 11.
- Remove kubal caps 15% faster.
- Adjust long range accuracy of pnzrshrek or swap with panzerfaust oooorrrrr give the the same stats as the bazooka.
- Reduce health of luchs to > 400 or match t70 health.
- Add side tech to unlock engineers/medics/flakHQ upgrades, reduce overall fuel price of tanks to compensate for new MP and fuel sinks.
- Add side tech for flame nades or possibly shrek
- AEC could use a slight turret rotation adjustment.
- Reduce USF nade tech to 15 fuel. M1919 should be allowed for a max 1 per squad.
- Reduce USF med truck MP by 50mp - 200 rather than 250
- Reduce Brit Arty flares scatter, increase AOE slightly to make them a more area denial tool. Increase price by 15-25 muni
- Up Jackson HP to add more survivability, should take more than 2 panther rounds to kill.
- OKW flak half track should receive a slight buff, increase LOS.
- Goliath should have 0 LOS just like other demos
- Slight increase in accuracy or damage to the pental MG for Panther
Let me know what you guys think.
28 Dec 2015, 21:02 PM
#10
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
Thunderhun pretty much nailed it.
I think problem with UKF is that it generally requires a higher skill level to make them work well and as mentioned you tend to need to crutch on fast Cromwell and Sniper play. The way they are designed makes them kind of vulnerable to OKW - Emplacements are extremely unattractive to use due to ISGs and how easy it is for them to be overrun (400 MP Mortar Pit = ~ 2 Volks). If you go early Mortar Pit then one mistake and it's suddenly Flame naded with a Shrek Volk pummeling it. Combine that with no real vehicle snare + Luches rush + Piats being terrible vs. light vehicles and things get ugly fast.
My gut feeling is things are mostly okay with OKW maybe being a *bit* too good and UKF being a *bit* UP. I think once Relic adds OKW side upgrades and maybe change Shreks on Volks then things will be a in a pretty good place.
I think problem with UKF is that it generally requires a higher skill level to make them work well and as mentioned you tend to need to crutch on fast Cromwell and Sniper play. The way they are designed makes them kind of vulnerable to OKW - Emplacements are extremely unattractive to use due to ISGs and how easy it is for them to be overrun (400 MP Mortar Pit = ~ 2 Volks). If you go early Mortar Pit then one mistake and it's suddenly Flame naded with a Shrek Volk pummeling it. Combine that with no real vehicle snare + Luches rush + Piats being terrible vs. light vehicles and things get ugly fast.
My gut feeling is things are mostly okay with OKW maybe being a *bit* too good and UKF being a *bit* UP. I think once Relic adds OKW side upgrades and maybe change Shreks on Volks then things will be a in a pretty good place.
28 Dec 2015, 21:10 PM
#11
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Yes IF we consider small amount of strats.
No IF we consider how limited some factions have to play.
Pretty much this.
There are some silly mechanics in this game that are very unbalanced. If for instance I pick Ostruppen with Ostheer and my Soviet opponent picks a start with T2, then I pretty much auto-win.
28 Dec 2015, 21:17 PM
#12
Posts: 656
- Reduce Volks base dmg back to 10 or 11.
- Remove kubal caps 15% faster.
- Adjust long range accuracy of pnzrshrek or swap with panzerfaust oooorrrrr give the the same stats as the bazooka.
- Reduce health of luchs to > 400 or match t70 health.
- Add side tech to unlock engineers/medics/flakHQ upgrades, reduce overall fuel price of tanks to compensate for new MP and fuel sinks.
- Add side tech for flame nades or possibly shrek
- AEC could use a slight turret rotation adjustment.
- Reduce USF nade tech to 15 fuel. M1919 should be allowed for a max 1 per squad.
- Reduce USF med truck MP by 50mp - 200 rather than 250
- Reduce Brit Arty flares scatter, increase AOE slightly to make them a more area denial tool. Increase price by 15-25 muni
- Up Jackson HP to add more survivability, should take more than 2 panther rounds to kill.
- OKW flak half track should receive a slight buff, increase LOS.
- Goliath should have 0 LOS just like other demos
- Slight increase in accuracy or damage to the pental MG for Panther
Let me know what you guys think.
Overall a pretty decent. Couple of thoughts:
The double whammy of paid truck upgrades AND weapon unlocks might be a bit excessive for OKW even with vehicle prices brought back in line. It really depends on how much each truck upgrade would be and how well OKW can do without relying upon those upgrades while rushing armor. My gut feeling is that in it's current state OKW probably doesn't actually need to rely on any truck upgrades (med/repair/flak) prior to producing it's first medium tank in 1v1 though.
Additional Jackson survivability might be a bit of a problem given how effective the M10 became once it received that extra 160 hp. The Jackson already survives two panther shots, just not three. If you meant the M8 Scott though I agree, that vehicle needs at least 400hp as it is currently far to fragile for when it arrives and what it does.
Another area that really needs looking at is soviet T1. Soviets are currently balanced in 1v1 games but as has been mentioned T1 is currently dead outside of producing M3s to hunt Kubels. For the sake of variety T1 needs some improvements to Penals (better mid/long range damage profile) and Snipers (one 82 health model) to make it a strategically viable option again.
28 Dec 2015, 21:26 PM
#13
1 Posts: 1276
Overall a pretty decent. Couple of thoughts:
The double whammy of paid truck upgrades AND weapon unlocks might be a bit excessive for OKW even with vehicle prices brought back in line. It really depends on how much each truck upgrade would be and how well OKW can do without relying upon those upgrades while rushing armor. My gut feeling is that in it's current state OKW probably doesn't actually need to rely on any truck upgrades (med/repair/flak) prior to producing it's first medium tank in 1v1 though.
Additional Jackson survivability might be a bit of a problem given how effective the M10 became once it received that extra 160 hp. The Jackson already survives two panther shots, just not three. If you meant the M8 Scott though I agree, that vehicle needs at least 400hp as it is currently far to fragile for when it arrives and what it does.
Another area that really needs looking at is soviet T1. Soviets are currently balanced in 1v1 games but as has been mentioned T1 is currently dead outside of producing M3s to hunt Kubels. For the sake of variety T1 needs some improvements to Penals (better mid/long range damage profile) and Snipers (one 82 health model) to make it a strategically viable option again.
Going off of the sniper health change a Aim time change would also be a welcome change.
M3 scott needs a lot of love for sure, AOE needs to be increased for sure as well as giving it direct fire as well.
Would also like to see the IS-2 range be brought in line with the Tigers starting range. JagTiger range should be reduced to 80 so it wont be a hard counter to the 17pndr as well.
28 Dec 2015, 22:02 PM
#14
Posts: 230
Permanently BannedMan the days of USF having 20% higher win ratio than ost and okw are over now.
28 Dec 2015, 22:53 PM
#16
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
Axis having slightly better win rate by ~0,050-0,100 = axis so OP, OP OKW, allies UP, relic did it again.
This were the w/l difference for the patch prior to OKW revamp + Rifle company nerf.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
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