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25 Nov 2015, 10:06 AM
#841
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13668 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 09:47 AMbC_
expect to see a few more things they arent implemented yet but

OKW starting manpower increased from 240 to 400, we want to open up build variations and currently all other factions can out produce OKW at the start now that volks are more expensive as well.

Croc cp increase from 12 to 13 same as all the heavy tanks
Croc cost changed from 700/180 to 640/230 same as the other heavies



So croc now costs as much as all heavies that are effective vs all targets and arrives just as late, but its AI and durability keeps getting nerfed and its AT is a joke.

Mmmmkay.

Sucks to be brit players lol.

Also, why additional menpower for OKW?
Why not for brits?
Why not for USF?

Aren't these armies limited in the openings too because of resources?
What does that achieve on the long run?

How OKW gets outproduced by everyone is such a huge issue all of sudden, but brits being outproduced since release day is fine?

These are serious questions.
25 Nov 2015, 10:13 AM
#842
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108



I dont get higher MP.



we want to open up build variations and currently all other factions can out produce OKW at the start now that volks are more expensive as well.
25 Nov 2015, 10:15 AM
#843
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 10:06 AMKatitof



So croc now costs as much as all heavies that are effective vs all targets and arrives just as late, but its AI and durability keeps getting nerfed and its AT is a joke.

Mmmmkay.

Sucks to be brit players lol.

Also, why additional menpower for OKW?
Why not for brits?
Why not for USF?

Aren't these armies limited in the openings too because of resources?
What does that achieve on the long run?

How OKW gets outproduced by everyone is such a huge issue all of sudden, but brits being outproduced since release day is fine?

These are serious questions.


I think the croc is one of the deadliest unit against infantry, surpassing the tiger and rivaling the King tiger, so I don't have a problem with the cost to 640/230 per say.

However, if the croc is really going to cost as much as the tiger/is2/pershing while being the slowest of them all, then the croc needs to be the most durable among them.

something like 1280 hp 320 armor.
25 Nov 2015, 10:19 AM
#844
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1651

T4 of OKW not to 120-130 fuel?!?
25 Nov 2015, 10:28 AM
#845
avatar of Leepriest

Posts: 178

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 09:47 AMbC_
expect to see a few more things they arent implemented yet but

OKW starting manpower increased from 240 to 400, we want to open up build variations and currently all other factions can out produce OKW at the start now that volks are more expensive as well.

Croc cp increase from 12 to 13 same as all the heavy tanks
Croc cost changed from 700/180 to 640/230 same as the other heavies


The CP is fine but at most the Croc deserves the 200 Fuel price tag.
Just take also in consideration of not just nerfing the British but also consider balancing the most pathetic British doctrine, the Royal artillery. Just try to play it actively in a game. The aoe of the 25 pounders is pittiful. In reality they had about 15-20% less explosive mass than a 105mm round yet ingame they have 50% of it. Also why does the sexton fire only five rounds compared to the Priests 7?

I propose, making the howitzers at base fire only 3 shots(instead of 6) and buffing the AOE to 80% of a 105 round and also make it fire a bit faster(a light round is fired faster than a heavier one). This would mean that the british actually have artillery that is non doctrinal like other factions.
Also the Valentine tank vet 1 ability, only works if the sextons are not on cooldown which kinda eliminates the whole purpose of exposing such a lightly armored tank as its easier to just move the sextons a bit closer.

The OKW doesnt need more resources at the beginning imo, they have the strongest late game and they should be a bit rough on the start. Also increase T4s price to 120 fuel.

Consider also buffing the DOT interval, as I think it was nerfed way too much for vehicles like the kv8, croc and flame Hetzer to 1 second(compared to the nerf from 0.5 to 1.25 seconds). Also lower the vet requirements for the Flame Hetzer by at least 50%.


25 Nov 2015, 10:34 AM
#846
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



we want to open up build variations and currently all other factions can out produce OKW at the start now that volks are more expensive as well.


But this is unbalanced and where is MP boost for UKF in that case? You know, variations.

Combine starting MP + value of starting unit and:

SU: 560MP
USF: 600MP
Brits: 570MP
OST: 620MP
OKW: 700MP

How this is balanced if you have over 100MP bonus at the beggining?

What's more, there is no side upgrades for MP.

SU: 500MP for all side upgrades.
USF: 550MP for all side upgrades (including ambulance)
Brits: 450MP for all side upgrades.


So, how it is balanced when one faction has:

Much higher starting MP.
No side upgrades for MP/Fuel.
Cheap MP and Fuel teching.


If Schwerer is going to stay at 105 and starting total MP at 700, there must be upgrades like:
Panzerschreck: 150MP 15F.
Grenades: 150MP 15F.
Medics at Med HQ: 250 MP.
Engis at Mech HQ: 250MP.
25 Nov 2015, 10:41 AM
#847
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13668 | Subs: 7



SU: 500MP for all side upgrades.
USF: 550MP for all side upgrades (including ambulance)
Brits: 450MP for all side upgrades.

You even could add wehr med bunker 150mp here.
25 Nov 2015, 10:43 AM
#848
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509



the beginning sum of each faction are pretty similar at this point.

(working off memory)

OKW
300+ 240 = 540
sov:
170 + 390 = 560
US:
160 + 400 = 560
UK:
280 + 290= 570

I do not think that the other faction really outproduce the OKW in the beginning.

if the intent is to to allow for more variation for the okw without buffing them, I would switch the sturm for the kubelwagon and refund the extra mp.

210 + 350 = 560


+1 what firesparks said. This mp buff has no reason really.
25 Nov 2015, 10:43 AM
#849
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 10:41 AMKatitof

You even could add wehr med bunker 150mp here.


I was focused on allies vs okw.

But still, 150MP+60ammo sound like a good joke when compare to allies and their MP/Fuel upgrades.
25 Nov 2015, 10:44 AM
#850
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13668 | Subs: 7



I was focused on allies vs okw.

But still, 150MP+60ammo is noting when compare to allies and their MP/Fuel upgrades.

True, but its still something compared to OKW, which gets the same thing for, well, free, because no other reason then being OKW.

OKW still have cheapest teching, some of the most powerful units, best scaling, free benefits with tech and no disadvantage on the preview as new volks now cover much better the only okw disadvantage-weak early game AI.

I don't think they need even more bonuses and free stuff when we have resource handicapped faction like UKF that can't even get proper map control early game. At least USF covers for rifle cost with officer unit during tech, but as you've said, they still have hefty side costs to pay.
25 Nov 2015, 10:47 AM
#851
avatar of chipwreckt

Posts: 725

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 09:47 AMbC_
expect to see a few more things they arent implemented yet but

OKW starting manpower increased from 240 to 400, we want to open up build variations and currently all other factions can out produce OKW at the start now that volks are more expensive as well.

Croc cp increase from 12 to 13 same as all the heavy tanks
Croc cost changed from 700/180 to 640/230 same as the other heavies


Nice change :). I felt like the fuel/ ammo was there for certain units but not the mp in first 5min. People forget that the time to BUILD the truck (to tech) is manpower heavy since you cant be building any other tier 0 units (volks, kubel etc) in that ~30sec, wich is a setback.

Also like the croc changes, It still is and always be a beast unit, KV8 on steroids with a maingun + MG. Makes it less of a no brainer for that price.
25 Nov 2015, 10:48 AM
#852
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 10:44 AMKatitof

True, but its still something compared to OKW, which gets the same thing for, well, free, because no other reason then being OKW.


:snfPeter:

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 10:44 AMKatitof

OKW still have cheapest teching, some of the most powerful units, best scaling, free benefits with tech and no disadvantage on the preview as new volks now cover much better the only okw disadvantage-weak early game AI.


To be honest, SP can easily lock this early AI disadvantage :foreveralone:


PS

Did anyone ever complain about OKW starting MP?!
25 Nov 2015, 10:49 AM
#853
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13668 | Subs: 7


People forget that the time to BUILD the truck (to tech) is manpower heavy since you cant be building any other tier 0 units (volks, kubel etc) in that ~30sec, wich is a setback.

Wehr would have a word with you on that in regards to pios and HMG42.
25 Nov 2015, 10:49 AM
#854
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509


Thats yesterdays, so im afraid its not new.


Apologies, then.
25 Nov 2015, 10:49 AM
#855
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108

Those changes are not final. @Australian Magic your right.
I guess we will see even more changes and maybe they are going to revert this again or relic is going to add upgrades/increase tier cost etc.
25 Nov 2015, 10:56 AM
#856
avatar of chipwreckt

Posts: 725

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 10:49 AMKatitof

Wehr would have a word with you on that in regards to pios and HMG42.


Ostheer benefits great from that change, you can actually get HMG + gren building at the same time. So it was/ is huge early game buff.
25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM
#857
avatar of $nuffy

Posts: 129

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 10:06 AMKatitof



So croc now costs as much as all heavies that are effective vs all targets and arrives just as late, but its AI and durability keeps getting nerfed and its AT is a joke.




Crocs AT is Joke ? I once had a frontal slugging match up close with the KT VS the croc, KT won with 1/5 health left ... The brit guy didn't reverse 'cause it really looked like at one point that the Croc is goin' to win. Not to mention that the Croc rolled over Pak, raketen, some grens and my shreck "blob" of 2 Volks, burned a few bunkers etc. before I drove my fresh KT to save the collapse, only to find out that the thing isn't much afraid of the KT as well. One really must wonder why it's getting nerf after nerf. o_O



:snfPeter:


PS

Did anyone ever complain about OKW starting MP?!


Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts. Thank God there's statistics, and Relic is actually doing something about it. Love the december patch. By trying it, I felt like I was playing with the 50kg of cement on my back for the past 2 years :gimpy:

25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM
#858
avatar of AchtAchter

Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3



snip



I encourage you to play the preview patch, to call Sturm pioneers superior when they only win against sections or riflemen when they catch them out of position is far fetched.
With the recent changes, Volks still lose to sections and Riflemen by a good margin, they are just not so hopeless anymore. I was restraining myself from posting here, because I actually want to play the preview before writing with all the theorycrafters here.
I would like if relic implements side upgrades for OKW, like AI upgrades for volks (of course removing the schreck beforehand).


If you'd play the preview you'd notice the Kübel is not a fighting squad at all any longer, so investing into it early game will basically make you lack in 2 volks, while the enemy gets two rifles or sections. That's what they mean by outproducing, since the Kübel can be scared off by any infantry squad in this game, unless you put them in red cover for some reason.


About the croc:

Seems kinda overnerf at the moment, reduced range, vastly increased price. 200 or 210 fuel sounds more fair imo.
25 Nov 2015, 11:14 AM
#859
avatar of Nabarxos

Posts: 392



I encourage you to play the preview patch, to call Sturm pioneers superior when they only win against sections or riflemen when they catch them out of position is far fetched.
With the recent changes, Volks still lose to sections and Riflemen by a good margin, they are just not so hopeless anymore. I was restraining myself from posting here, because I actually want to play the preview before writing with all the theorycrafters here.
I would like if relic implements side upgrades for OKW, like AI upgrades for volks (of course removing the schreck beforehand).


If you'd play the preview you'd notice the Kübel is not a fighting squad at all any longer, so investing into it early game will basically make you lack in 2 volks, while the enemy gets two rifles or sections. That's what they mean by outproducing, since the Kübel can be scared off by any infantry squad in this game, unless you put them in red cover for some reason.


About the croc:

Seems kinda overnerf at the moment, reduced range, vastly increased price. 200 or 210 fuel sounds more fair imo.

thats strange but Volks now beat conscripts,Riflemen AND sections
i guess you forgat to play with the mod then
25 Nov 2015, 11:25 AM
#860
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1651

I do feel that the OKW needs a bit higher starting MP, also because of the fact that the Sws truck is 100 mp 15 fuel. Although 400 mp is a bit too much of a good thing. 300-350 mp would be closer to the other factions. Also brits should get +50 mp then.
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