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24 Nov 2015, 14:23 PM
#821
avatar of Iron Emperor

Posts: 1651

I would keep vet 5 that's what makes them what OKW is. The trucks is something different
24 Nov 2015, 14:32 PM
#822
avatar of _GarbageMan_

Posts: 83


if he has a shrek blob followed up by panther he has literally only AT and close to zero Ai, what hinders you to build a rifle blob and annhilate his AT blob? why would you try to counter a AT blob with a vehicle? o.O


You do know that schreck blobs kills infantry quite effectively right? If you got 3 okw schreck squads, and if they all fire a volley at one squad, it will probably kill half the guys because schrecks are like snipers. Then the remaining assault rifles on the other two guys in each squad can do pretty good work on a remaining squad members. So they can kill infantry quite decently and they are not that handicap.

Will a USF rifleman bar blob have much issue? Not really. But that's also looking to have a battle of the blobs, which USF will probably lose to a bumbar or a stuka.


Now if any armor rolls through, one volley from those three squads will insta kill most tanks.

Though I only play 3 vs 3. I'm sure it's much different in 1 vs 1 if you go blob scheck heavy...yeh I guess you wouldn't have much else then.
24 Nov 2015, 14:36 PM
#823
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1572 | Subs: 2



You do know that schreck blobs kills infantry quite effectively right? If you got 3 okw schreck squads, and if they all fire a volley at one squad, it will probably kill half the guys because schrecks are like snipers. Then the remaining assault rifles on the other two guys in each squad can do pretty good work on a remaining squad members. So they can kill infantry quite decently and they are not that handicap.

Will a USF rifleman bar blob have much issue? Not really. But that's also looking to have a battle of the blobs, which USF will probably lose to a bumbar or a stuka.


Now if any armor rolls through, one volley from those three squads will insta kill most tanks.

Though I only play 3 vs 3. I'm sure it's much different in 1 vs 1 if you go blob scheck heavy...yeh I guess you wouldn't have much else then.

true its alot different in larger gamemodes, but 3 shrek squads should win versus 1 rifle squad (your example). and believe me if you got 3 rifle sqauds with bars (since he inevstes muni into his inf too) and you focus fire 1 volk squad it will drop FAST ;)
24 Nov 2015, 17:32 PM
#824
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509



When comparing units, taking tech into account is bullshit.
Unit price that's all what matters, so your post lacks of true content.


Err...upgrades ARE tech. He made a point about how ostheer doesn't have to pay for lmgs, nades etc and UKF does. But the fact is that ostheer does pay. Which was pretty much what my post was about.

I did not mean to compare un-upgraded grens with un-upgraded IS. Or grens vs IS in general. Which I think is what you are talking about.

Here, I only added in the T1 cost as part of the upgrade cost is because those are resources spent purely for obtaining the access to the units, not towards the units themselves. They don't really count towards 'tech as a pacing' cost because Ost is given extra mp in the beginning to make up for this, and starts with 20 fuel.

Edit: And in a more general sense, why not take tech into account when comparing units? By all means, then the Panther, Churchill & Comet tanks are OP as fuck compared to all other tanks (apart from doctrinals), if what you are saying i.e. unit price is the only valid criterion for comparison, is true in all cases because all three of these can comfortably 1v2 all the other tanks.

While comparison by unit prices is certainly true in some respects, sometimes its not.
24 Nov 2015, 17:42 PM
#825
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Nov 2015, 12:41 PMRollo


1: UKF need to spend fuel for T2 and then another 400mp+45 fuel on upgrades

2: you don't even mention the fact IS cost 280mp per squad

3: ost BP1 costs 40 fuel

4: it's silly to include the soviet AT nade in the comparison when the faust is free

Ost spend less fuel and MP for their general infantry, add in CAS LMG cheese and the match up is suddenly extremely unbalanced


First: we need to decide what mine and your posts were about. I thought it was purely about how IS have to pay for their upgrades but ost grenadiers don't. I merely set out to correct that flaw in reasoning. To answer you:

1. Ost needs to spend 200mp 15 fuel for T2 as well. I wasn't out to compare the teching costs of higher tiers, only as much as is needed for grens vs IS . Ost has to pay 80mp 10 fuel to access them. Compared to IS (which are tech free). I did not include the IS squad size upgrade because that's a much more powerful upgrade when compared with lmgs/nades. That we can debate on, if you want.

2. The whole point was not to compare their performance straight-up. Just the upgrade costs. For that you'd need dps and effective health stats at various vet/upgrade levels.

3. No it costs 45, I'm pretty sure about this.

4. I did say that that was a pure hypothetical. That and the hypothetical osheer 5 man upgrade. I'm not counting those as facts, and neither should you. They were purely there to illustrate the mp/fuel thing i.e. UKF pays more in mp but Ost pays more in fuel.

I reiterate: the balance ramifications of that price differential, I leave up to others.

Edit: How is CAS cheese even remotely relevant to this? Edit: While I'm sure it is very frustrating to fight against cheese, its hardly balance to base the whole game around it. I mean, that'll just make everyone cheese instead of the cheesers.
24 Nov 2015, 18:44 PM
#826
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Nov 2015, 14:20 PMpigsoup
i thought one of the main reason why okw got free shit for merely setting up a truck was due to their resource penalty. vet 5 has not been even removed. any plan about looking into them?


This is my concern as well. Vet 5 was given to compensate for high amounts of infantry that would face armor unsupported, and for limited armor so it could make serious changes to the game even while always being outnumbered. Currently OKW pays nothing to get 5 levels of vet, so it is an outright better version available to everyone else.

Please don't say OKW 5 levels of vet is not as good as 3. In multiple factions vet 1 is a throwaway, and if the vet is overperforming in one faction that does not give the right to another faction to overperform.

Also I mentioned a while back that Panther should require an unlock cost. The more I look the more I think OKW should have to unlock everything that was give to it for free with tech costs within buildings. That way they can feel fuel starved (like COH1 PE) but a good player will only make the upgrades necessary to keep them on the field (retain their new potency), and in the very late game they can always upgrade all the tech to help them stick around.

OKW call-ins need to be looked at. I still don't understand why these units received no cost adjustments, this is a real concern for larger games where OKW has a couple of power units that turn games but will now be outright cheaper.
24 Nov 2015, 19:12 PM
#827
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1890

OKW need more MP/ fuel sinks in the form of teching, upgrades should be more expensive.

24 Nov 2015, 20:08 PM
#828
24 Nov 2015, 20:24 PM
#829
avatar of Leepriest

Posts: 178

25 Nov 2015, 01:24 AM
#830
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 798

It seems the players are concerned about the Panther coming in too soon and pre-unlocked upgrades for the OKW. Also shrek blobs look to still be the norm for the majority of OKW armies. So what about a Tank Hunter Tactics unlock in the HQ which is available after the Schwer is built (something like 150-200 MP 40-50 fuel). Which unlocks Panther for purchase in Schwer and Panzershreks for Volks at 70 munis(since Relic seems completely against moving them to any other unit or making a dedicated AT squad). Volks would come with Flame Nade on purchase(they are still slightly worse Grens for 10MP more). But after the first or second truck is built they can unlock 3 MP40s or 2 Stg44s and Panzerfaust ability for 60-70 munis; this upgrade can not stack with the later Panzershrek upgrade. This would delay Panthers and Panzershreks, but Panzerfaust would still at least give Volks an early answer to fast light vehicles. I don't think having an AT weapon and AT snare on the same unit would be too bad, since Rifleman can do it much sooner than Volks would be able too.

As for Vet 4-5, really? People are complaining about the unobtainable Vet 4-5, especially after it just got a nerf? If anything Vet 4-5 is so unobtainable most OKW units need 10% Vet requirement reduction(and by most, I mean like every unit except Volks).

For call-in tanks... Command Panther is already pretty expensive and comes at late CPs (maybe increase it by one more if timing becomes an issue). Jagdtiger could see a 40-50 fuel increase since it was the only unit to really get a significant fuel decrease due to the resource penalty. The Flame Hetzer... needs something it stinks for what you get. 10-20 muni increase to G43 upgrade for Panzerfusiliers and I think the rest is fine. Most of the artillery call-ins still stink, the Flare being the only good one and it just gives LoS.

Obers come so late I don't think their upgrades really need any significant cost increase. Just an idea to balance them some more.
25 Nov 2015, 05:41 AM
#831
avatar of SpaceHamster
Patrion 14

Posts: 474

Like I said before, if they change shrecks on 'mainline' infantry. You can have a good OKW faction which won't be completely broken with 100% resource income.
25 Nov 2015, 05:48 AM
#832
avatar of iceman

Posts: 148

Cool patch but not enough. Performance remains unaddressed, maps are untouched, commanders are for the most part still 98% useless and irrelevant and there is nothing but more content being pumped into the game without refinement and bug fixing being done beforehand. The amount of bugs is just increasing and the bug fixes list is getting shorter.

I am gonna vote for the "not quite enough" option.


I second that!
25 Nov 2015, 07:42 AM
#833
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

have the king tiger and panther both require all the three trucks (which isn't that hard), but the king tiger have the additional require that all three trucks be still standing.

This way the allies can stop the king tiger from arriving by destroying a truck.
25 Nov 2015, 08:09 AM
#834
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
To be honest i dont know for what game mode Relic do balance, but dont forget that in team games OKW with cashes and this cheap tiers will be dominate with there vehicle.
25 Nov 2015, 09:31 AM
#835
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4315 | Subs: 7

To be honest i dont know for what game mode Relic do balance, but dont forget that in team games OKW with cashes and this cheap tiers will be dominate with there vehicle.


game is meant to be balanced for 1vs1.

Its logical that faction need to mirrored when they must be good agains each other in all game modes (because higher game mode mean late game means more nd now allies ar more early game and axis late game an i think this wont change - except brits and maybe affrica corps if they come)
bC_
8 of 9 Relic postsRelic 25 Nov 2015, 09:47 AM
#836
avatar of bC_
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 102 | Subs: 23

expect to see a few more things they arent implemented yet but

OKW starting manpower increased from 240 to 400, we want to open up build variations and currently all other factions can out produce OKW at the start now that volks are more expensive as well.

Croc cp increase from 12 to 13 same as all the heavy tanks
Croc cost changed from 700/180 to 640/230 same as the other heavies
25 Nov 2015, 09:54 AM
#837
avatar of atouba

Posts: 482

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 09:47 AMbC_
expect to see a few more things they arent implemented yet but

OKW starting manpower increased from 240 to 400, we want to open up build variations and currently all other factions can out produce OKW at the start now that volks are more expensive as well.

Croc cp increase from 12 to 13 same as all the heavy tanks
Croc cost changed from 700/180 to 640/230 same as the other heavies


But churchill AVRE still cost 560 mp 140 fuel?
25 Nov 2015, 09:59 AM
#838
avatar of Arclyte

Posts: 692

more buffs for OKW

lol
25 Nov 2015, 10:01 AM
#839
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 09:47 AMbC_
expect to see a few more things they arent implemented yet but

OKW starting manpower increased from 240 to 450 (?), we want to open up build variations and currently all other factions can out produce OKW at the start now that volks are more expensive as well.

Croc cp increase from 12 to 13 same as all the heavy tanks
Croc cost changed from 700/180 to 640/230 same as the other heavies


I dont get higher MP.

I mean, USF start with 450 but they have weak RE.
OKW starts with 240 but they have powerful SP.

With 240MP/400MP techning and upgrades between OKW and USF were kinda balanced in terms of MP.
Healing, nades, captain and major are 840MP.
Med HQ, 2 Trucks and Schwerer HQ are 600MP.

So the whole is 240MP in favour of OKW but on the other and USF have more at the beggining.


Im afraid 400MP at the beggining.

- Powerful starting unit
- No sides upgrades
- Insanely cheap teching (Panther coming before E8, Pz4 coming before Sherman)
25 Nov 2015, 10:05 AM
#840
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 09:47 AMbC_
expect to see a few more things they arent implemented yet but

OKW starting manpower increased from 240 to 400, we want to open up build variations and currently all other factions can out produce OKW at the start now that volks are more expensive as well.


the beginning sum of each faction are pretty similar at this point.

(working off memory)

OKW
300+ 240 = 540
sov:
170 + 390 = 560
US:
160 + 400 = 560
UK:
280 + 290= 570

I do not think that the other faction really outproduce the OKW in the beginning.

if the intent is to to allow for more variation for the okw without buffing them, I would switch the sturm for the kubelwagon and refund the extra mp.

210 + 350 = 560
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