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[AXIS] [All modes] [PIV should be on par with Ez8/t3485]

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25 Sep 2015, 21:35 PM
#61
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

Reading this thread encouraged me to make my first post on this forum. It seems that many people are advocating for a performance increase for the Panzer IV. I don't think that this would actually fix the problem. It seems like this would shift the tank burden to UKF (Cromwell),USF (Sherman) and SU (76). Both USF and SU would have to select their corresponding doctrines just to stay competitive with a stock do-it-all Panzer IV. The poor Cromwell would be completely outclassed. This would force Allied players to buy TDs for a stock unit, and that would solve nothing because that solution already exists for Axis.

There are several solutions that do not require throwing this delicate tank balance. 1) Doctrine tanks or other units (cough... flame rifles) are indeed too powerful and require toning down a bit. 2) Maybe a different approach of tackling these two doctrinal tanks: players selecting these doctrines are doing so (in part) because of the specialized tank. Buying a TD might be the best bet. 3) A healthy combination of the 1 and 2. 4) Fix the teching issues so that Axis players can get to the Panther in a timely fashion to combat these two tanks.

The EZ8 might need to cost a bit more fuel if it severely outperforms the Panzer IV.

This is my admittedly (very) limited view on the balance of the Panzer IV. I may just need to play with the tank more to see how it holds up.


Thats very well thought out imo. +1 mate
25 Sep 2015, 21:45 PM
#62
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 17:17 PMBurts
I like how your first change would make the PIV ridicilously overperform compared to all other allied tanks, while your second suggestion would make the PIV even less viable than it is now..

Yep, my first though.

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 17:19 PMShanka
the stug stun lock him with the pak stun ability


No longer stuns, it's blocks main gun.

-------------------------------------


Nope to any OP change.

PIV: -5f
E8: +5f

25 Sep 2015, 21:53 PM
#63
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 21:35 PMJunaid


Thats very well thought out imo. +1 mate


+2 The PZ4 is a generalist Tier 3 tank in a faction that *gasp* tends to have all-rounder units ( http://www.companyofheroes.com/blog/2015/08/17/coh2-faction-comparison ). There isn't a reason why a faction should have a stock medium tank on par with *doctrinal* specialist tanks from other factions. Not to mention when that faction has the best AT gun, best infantry AT, and other combined arms.

Slight pen buff to make it more competitive? Sure. Slight Cost increase to EZ8, Why not? More drastic changes and the PZ4 would shit all over the stock Allied units (you know, the units it encounters every single game). Alex's Vet2 idea is kind of cool though. Hell, if anything just make an Ostheer commander that has the OKW PZ4 w/ Skirts at EZ8 pricing then we can have every USF/Ostheer match be Rifle vs. TBD Commander :foreveralone:

EDIT: Also, unit timing also matters A LOT. Its not something you can just ignore and reduce to the scope of Unit A vs. Unit B
25 Sep 2015, 22:02 PM
#64
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

Also I want to add. Look at Comet. This tank could be considered as "doctrinal" aswell, because you cant have both Churchill and Comet. But for some reason this unit cost you 185 fuel and its WEAKER in AT then Panther.

Comet you 185 fuel. Because its faster, have AI performance, 800 HP and nice penetration, can stand against all medium tanks, but could be damaged by AT guns and TDs, good range.

Panther cost 175 fuel. 800 HP Perfect frontal armor, good mobility, good range, zero AI perfomance, good penetration, weak to TDs.

E8 have 720 HP, mobility, good frontal armor against all medium tanks, good AI, really good penetration (200 penetration at close range), could be damaged by AT guns and TDs, can fight any Heavy tank frontally at close range or if flanking. Cost you 140 fuel

T34\85 have 800 HP, good mobility, good frontal armor against medium tanks (worst then E8 frontal armor, but it compensated by HP), decent penetration and decent AI performance, can fight all heavies if flanking. Cost you around 130 fuel.

PIV have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor without vet, with vet quite decent, decent AI performance, can fight all stock medium tanks, cant fight heavies even if flanking, good mobility, weak against all AT inf and tanks. Cost you 125 fuel.

Sherman have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor, poor AT perfomance, really good AI perfomance, decent mobility, cant fight heavies, weak against AT tanks, less weaker against AT inf.

T34\76 have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor, poor AT perfomance but better then shermans, decent AI, weak to any AT. Cost 90 fuel.

So how is this fair? Even for doctrinal units.


This is a great run down.

I think the thing to take away from this is that touching anything except penetration on the P4 would make it far too powerful vs all the other non-doctrinal mediums and whatnot.

The allied advanced mediums on the other hand used to come in slightly after medium armor was available instead of at the same time. I think we just need to go back to that so the soviets and USF can't immediately invalidate the P4 which they are better then in every way.

Maybe the prices also need looking at, but they should still be cheaper then the panther and comet though. Last thing we want is the allies not to be able to get the numbers they need to take out the heavies.
25 Sep 2015, 22:32 PM
#65
avatar of hannibalbarcajr

Posts: 503

Either it should get a small buff because it's the only generalist AI/AT capable tank they have except I guess panther which is in T4 and expensive itself. However it wouldn't need a large buff just enough that it can reliably penetrate other mediums at close range or rear armor all range. I agree it deflects a ridiculous number of shots to the point I never get it anymore. Ostwind could use small buff also because it's not as effective as it should be at blob control but it would need a cost increase with that.
25 Sep 2015, 22:35 PM
#66
avatar of WFA_DoomTornado

Posts: 100

Reading this thread encouraged me to make my first post on this forum.
No offense but I wonder how many dudes made new account just to affect the result.
25 Sep 2015, 22:45 PM
#67
avatar of l4hti

Posts: 476

lol its absolutely fine and the OKW one is borderline OP BTW :snfQuinn:
25 Sep 2015, 23:06 PM
#68
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600

I agree with the notion that the P4 could use some love...

Its window of effectiveness is currently fairly small.

Soviets can pretty much hard counter it streight away with 2 SU76's.
Brits Cromwell seems to face them down easily (and are cheaper), Firefly can 1 shot them with tulips.
USF are the only faction id probably build a P4 against. But even then... as soon as a jackson hits the field, youre gonna wish ur P4 was a stug.

Id be happy with a scatter or AP buff.


Or even a HP buff so its not 1 shot by fireflys burst.


PIV have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor without vet, with vet quite decent, decent AI performance, can fight all stock medium tanks, cant fight heavies even if flanking, good mobility, weak against all AT inf and tanks. Cost you 125 fuel.

Sherman have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor, poor AT perfomance, really good AI perfomance, decent mobility, cant fight heavies, weak against AT tanks, less weaker against AT inf.

T34\76 have 640 HP. Weak frontal armor, poor AT perfomance but better then shermans, decent AI, weak to any AT. Cost 90 fuel.


Im fairly sure sherman AP shells have the same AT pen as the p4. which are both better than the T34/76.
25 Sep 2015, 23:35 PM
#69
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 23:06 PMCorsin

Im fairly sure sherman AP shells have the same AT pen as the p4. which are both better than the T34/76.

In penetration performance, 34-76 and M4A3 are entirely alike, while the IV's is superior over the others by 10 at mid-range and 20 at long-range. Fire-rates are an average of 5.5 (PIV), 5.8 (M4A3), 6.45 (34-76).
26 Sep 2015, 01:03 AM
#70
avatar of hannibalbarcajr

Posts: 503

The 34/76 needs some love also because while cheap and low pop cap it is weakest and locked in tier 4. A buff would need more cost in fuel though.
26 Sep 2015, 01:05 AM
#71
avatar of hannibalbarcajr

Posts: 503

But it shouldn't be on par with 34/85 or E8 since those tanks are high class doctrinal tanks. Maybe could support a cheapening of fuel on P4 since they cost similar to 34/85 and aren't very close to being as good
26 Sep 2015, 01:51 AM
#72
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

the IV is fine. it's a good generalist medium. it's not great against tanks and it's not great against infantry but it's good against both.
26 Sep 2015, 07:08 AM
#73
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

why are people comparing the pziv to the e8 and t34 85 first of all. The closest counter part to the pziv are the 75mm sherman, cromwell, and t34 76.

the panther is what you should be comparing to the comet, E8, and t34 85. The panzer 4, sherman, cromwell, t34 76 are the regular medium tank. The panther, comet, e8, and t34 85 are the advanced medium.

No one complain about the t34 75 and the 75mm sherman being inferior to the advanced medium, because they are clearly priced as inferior tank. The panzer is slightly superior to the two but is still firmly in their strength category.
26 Sep 2015, 07:13 AM
#74
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1

why are people comparing the pziv to the e8 and t34 85 first of all. The closest counter part to the pziv are the 75mm sherman, cromwell, and t34 76.

the panther is what you should be comparing to the comet, E8, and t34 85. The panzer 4, sherman, cromwell, t34 76 are the regular medium tank. The panther, comet, e8, and t34 85 are the advanced medium.

There's 2 tier of medium tank.


That's the point, E8 and t34/85 are comparable to panther, yet they are slightly more expensive than PzIV and less expensive than panther. Don't get me wrong, those units are fine, but PzIV is too expensive for its impact.
26 Sep 2015, 07:19 AM
#75
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2015, 07:13 AMRMMLz


That's the point, E8 and t34/85 are comparable to panther, yet they are slightly more expensive than PzIV and less expensive than panther. Don't get me wrong, those units are fine, but PzIV is too expensive for its impact.


30 mp, 15 fuel, and 2 pop are more then "slightly".

the panzeriv is also the "control group" around which all other tank are balanced around. Don't mess with it. If there's a problem with the e8 and t34 85 mess with them instead.

In fact the Pziv and t34 85 have been almost static for the last year or so. At this point the ost panzer is the gold standard around which all other tanks are compared and balanced against. Don't mess with the control group.
26 Sep 2015, 07:32 AM
#76
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440



I don't know about this argument they are "doctrinal" tanks. I dont know how, "doctrinal" tanks connected with "it should cost 140 fuel more but perform like ~155-160 fuel unit". Sure they are doctrinal, but why they should perform like top tech tanks, while costing you almost like stock tanks?

For every PIV soviet\USF player can have T34\85 or E8. Both this tanks would rape PIV. I just want to ask why? Simply because its doctrinal? Why then doctrinal inf more or less on pair with stock inf if they cost you the same\close. So T34\85 and E8 can stay toe-to-toe with panthers (if used right), which cost Axis players almost ~35 fuel more, but PIV which cost ~10 fuel less then T34-85\E8 will have problems with both this tanks.



well a Stug has a chance of beating both 85 and Ez 8. If you want TDs get a Stug.

As for why people often bring the doctrinal argument, it is because choosing one doctrine means you are limiting your options. people go for doctrines with 85s and Ez 8s because Soviet/USF stock tanks suck. A lot of Soviet players will gladly swap the 85 for something like a PIV as a stock tank
26 Sep 2015, 07:35 AM
#77
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440

Not a bad suggestion. Ez8 @ 14CP/ or cost increased to 180/490 and T34 @11CP/or cost increased to 160/400.


see this is why people are nasty to you. Plenty of people have patiently tried to explain stuff to you but you don't seem to get it.

And really there plenty of real balance issues that needs addressing
26 Sep 2015, 07:38 AM
#78
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440

Yeah forgot about tiger's CP. It should come at the same time.

@Johnny: That is an interesting suggestion, but then the CMD PIV would lose its appeal.


ONTOPIC: Lets' forget about the timings mate. The PIV needs better performance, a buff is on the horizon


WFA stands for a clan I assume, go play some USF vs your clan-mates and see if you think Tigers should come the same time as EZ8. And for fun ask them to go elite troops and get a tiger ace
26 Sep 2015, 07:42 AM
#79
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1



30 mp, 15 fuel, and 2 pop are more then "slightly".

the panzeriv is also the "control group" around which all other tank are balanced around. Don't mess with it. If there's a problem with the e8 and t34 85 mess with them instead.

In fact the Pziv and t34 85 have been almost static for the last year or so. At this point the ost panzer is the gold standard around which all other tanks are compared and balanced against. Don't mess with the control group.


How did you come up with that control groups thing, and the fact that all tanks are balanced based on PzIV, is if from an official post or something (legit question)? If so, OK. But if not, then why should they change every other unit?

PzIV could use small price nerf or penetration buff. It won't break the whole balance.
26 Sep 2015, 07:53 AM
#80
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2015, 07:42 AMRMMLz


How did you come up with that control groups thing, and the fact that all tanks are balanced based on PzIV, is if from an official post or something (legit question)? If so, OK. But if not, then why should they change every other unit?

PzIV could use small price nerf or penetration buff. It won't break the whole balance.


It make sense to have the panzer 4 as the "control group". Because frankly the 75 sherman and the t34 76 have been fairly crap for eternality. The panzer4's decent power against everything make it the ideal control group. I don't know if relic prescript to this idea but it make sense.

and frankly the t34 76 is still a piece of crap even at its price range. the 75 sherman got a buff to its ap round but I haven't really seen it in action.
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