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russian armor

USF Heavy weapons idea.

14 Sep 2015, 13:46 PM
#21
avatar of Loki

Posts: 96

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2015, 23:38 PMnee
I don't know what you mean by them being in a "bad place".

Also, how does this "require" the addition of numerous light vehicles that can easily replace these heavy weapons into the non-doc build?



So, the Americans mg is weak. They cant get it out of the gate as to the power of rifleman. You also have to choose between mg or at gun. That is in a bad place. The 57mm is the worst mainline at gun in the game. Its on the faction that needs it the most. Problem.

I would say the the british mg dies less easily. The arc maby, the long busts, or the time it hits the field. Not sure, but the 50 cal still gets wiped quite often.

So increasing there durability and there effectiveness is needed. IMO.


If you were to put the weapons teams in tier o unlocked after the purchase of any officer; in the in the tiers where the weapons were is an empty space. Thus needs filling. Having only two available units in each tier would be a simple joke about lack of virsatility. And there are enough about the americans as is.

It might be cool if the exta weapon was only useable when the team had three members or higher. It make Since. And why the hell not. Keeps youre teams healthy.
14 Sep 2015, 14:15 PM
#22
avatar of KingKubel

Posts: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2015, 18:06 PMMackie
can't we have a pak43 on a kubelwagon instead? :P


yeah of course you can:

14 Sep 2015, 15:34 PM
#23
avatar of Volsky

Posts: 344

1) Dat photoshop.

2) Slot items can't be used by squads that are crew weapons, since the actual MG/ATG counts as a member of the squad and if it ends up picking up the slot item/a squad member who has a slot item ends up as part of the gunner/loader combo, then...yeah, the squad goes batshit; I tried some stuff with this back in vCoH, can't remember EXACTLY what happened, but the tl;dr version is that drugs/slot items on crew weapons are bad, mmkay?
nee
14 Sep 2015, 21:23 PM
#24
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 13:46 PMLoki

So, the Americans mg is weak. They cant get it out of the gate as to the power of rifleman. You also have to choose between mg or at gun. That is in a bad place. The 57mm is the worst mainline at gun in the game. Its on the faction that needs it the most. Problem.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to simply buff these weapons or give them new abilities rather than just shuffling them around? They're not going to be much more effective if you just put them into a different base building to train.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 13:46 PMLoki

So increasing there durability and there effectiveness is needed. IMO.

Moving them between tiers affects their availability, not their performance in combat.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 13:46 PMLoki

If you were to put the weapons teams in tier o unlocked after the purchase of any officer; in the in the tiers where the weapons were is an empty space. Thus needs filling. Having only two available units in each tier would be a simple joke about lack of virsatility. And there are enough about the americans as is.
So the idea of new units pops up because of the unit shuffling idea. That's called feature creep. These new units also copy the roles these heavy weapons are suppose to perform, so what you get is redundant units in a faction roster, aka bloat. You're not going to even use that AT gun when you can easily just train a light vehicle that does the same job but faster. SOme of them don't even make snese when you replace HMG or AT Gun- you don't ever need Tier3 or even Tier2 if you can get Hellcats after researching LT.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 13:46 PMLoki

It might be cool if the exta weapon was only useable when the team had three members or higher. It make Since. And why the hell not. Keeps youre teams healthy.

The minute you give other units new roles is the minute other units lose relevance. HMG with bazookas defeats the purpose of AT Gun, and AT gun with LMG defeats the purpose of the former. Even the Captain cannot pickup weapons since he comes with two bazookas, which fills the heavy slot(s).
15 Sep 2015, 23:35 PM
#25
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026


M1 57mm gun teams were allocated one bazooka per team for close range defense against any tank that tried to assault and over-run their position.


This would theoretically be a fantastic way to balance the 57mm in general since neither it nor a single bazooka are very effective weapons.

I just wish handheld AT was shorter range than it is by like 5 or something. I feel like it should be close in defence against tanks rather than primary hunter-killers that are easy to swarm (lol shreks).
15 Sep 2015, 23:45 PM
#26
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Sep 2015, 21:23 PMnee

The minute you give other units new roles is the minute other units lose relevance. HMG with bazookas defeats the purpose of AT Gun, and AT gun with LMG defeats the purpose of the former. Even the Captain cannot pickup weapons since he comes with two bazookas, which fills the heavy slot(s).


Giving units new roles is the entire purpose of the usf-versatility over raw power.

Sherman's can change shells and act as a smoke mortar.
REs with lmgs can act as HMG teams.
Riflemen with Zooks are the only at snare+at weapon squad ingame.
Taking medics out of ambulance and inserting res inside
Resigning captain to focus production duty lategame

And so on. If anything, support weapon racks (which mechanically I accept can't be implemented) would build on the U.S. theme of utility and versatility, while also adding more strategies to the faction and buffing debatably the weakest support weapons.
15 Sep 2015, 23:55 PM
#27
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

Not trying to say your idea is bad, since I tried something similar in CoH1 and CoH2 and ran into a brick wall with implementation. US weapon teams historically did have access to Bazookas, such that an M1917 HMG team or M1 81mm mortar team often carried one into battle for defense. M1 57mm gun teams were allocated one bazooka per team for close range defense against any tank that tried to assault and over-run their position. British 6-pounder teams carried a Bren for self-defense, and German anti-tank gun teams often were allocated an MG34 or MG42 LMG for defense as well.

Oooooooh, historrrrryyyyyyyyy!



yeah of course you can:


Why have I not seen this before
16 Sep 2015, 03:57 AM
#28
avatar of Loki

Posts: 96



Giving units new roles is the entire purpose of the usf-versatility over raw power.

Sherman's can change shells and act as a smoke mortar.
REs with lmgs can act as HMG teams.
Riflemen with Zooks are the only at snare+at weapon squad ingame.
Taking medics out of ambulance and inserting res inside
Resigning captain to focus production duty lategame

And so on. If anything, support weapon racks (which mechanically I accept can't be implemented) would build on the U.S. theme of utility and versatility, while also adding more strategies to the faction and buffing debatably the weakest support weapons.



Wow, well said surge. +1
nee
16 Sep 2015, 10:59 AM
#29
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216



Giving units new roles is the entire purpose of the usf-versatility over raw power.

Sherman's can change shells and act as a smoke mortar.
REs with lmgs can act as HMG teams.
Riflemen with Zooks are the only at snare+at weapon squad ingame.
Taking medics out of ambulance and inserting res inside
Resigning captain to focus production duty lategame

And so on. If anything, support weapon racks (which mechanically I accept can't be implemented) would build on the U.S. theme of utility and versatility, while also adding more strategies to the faction and buffing debatably the weakest support weapons.
There comes a point where versatility means you can use certain units and abandon others meant to fill that role.

Your list is about versatilbity, but not new roles. They change their nature, sometimes permanently:
-Shermans can switch shells but aren't great at either role. You do not spend munitions to make them better at their AT/AI job besides the pintle upgrade, which doesn't swap for anything.
-REs with the M1919 can act like HMGs, but you need to use a RE squad, spend munitions for the LMG, and utilize them for combat, and of course choosing Infantry Company. Once you do this you're wasting your resources if you use that RET for anything else, so it's resigned to be an HMG supplement.
-Captain first needs to risk being in the front leeching XP before it can really make a difference with production.
-Medics cannot replace RETs.

As you can see, there are costs to the versatility. But what costs do you have if you can outfit an AT gun with BAR or LMG? You are giving them new roles with nothing but munitions expenditure. You won't see RETs with LMGs if you can simply spend the same amount of munitions to AT gun and performs the same job as well as antitank. That's not the sort of versatility I see in USF units, nor do I expect that to be the sort of versatility Relic envisioned (but really who knows #Reliclogic)

Versatility needs to come at a cost. IMO the only good justification with outfitting pickups to HMG/ AT Gun is if all factions can do it, but this obviously wouldn't benefit USF since most other weapons from other factions perform better; four Racketenwerfer units each with LMG34 sitting inside Ettelbruck train station anyone?
16 Sep 2015, 11:45 AM
#30
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

You could give secondary members separate epbs with their own upgrades, and have clicking on the rack while in range upgrade that particular entity-icon under unit decorator could be done manually.


But then it'd just break when you recrew the gun.
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