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russian armor

su-85 needs attention.

1 Aug 2014, 19:55 PM
#1
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 614

The su-85 in light of even heavier and more consistent german armor I think needs a pen as well a a minor dmg buff. Currently this thing is just almost hopeless and useless. It is a tank destroyer that cannot destroy tanks. It already and always has had poor maneuverability and obviously it has no turret and terrible rotation I get that it is vulnerable to flanking that is fine it has its downfalls but the fact that it cannot most the time pen a panther and pretty much do nothing to any form of tigers is unacceptable imo. If it cannot reliably pen a panther or tiger what is the point of it pretty much useless might as well drive it into the ice and let it sink. Opinions?
1 Aug 2014, 20:06 PM
#2
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

Compare the cost of it to the cost of the Jackson. Then compare their stats.

Laugh and cry salty tears at how useless Soviet T4 is now the Rocket Arty overbuff has been undone.
1 Aug 2014, 20:22 PM
#3
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2560 | Subs: 1

I used to play T4 a lot with soviets, but now I don't really care anymore. Soviet T4 just doesn't give you a lot of options and requires you to supplement with doctrinal tanks before you can begin aggressive armor pushes. But why be defensive until 9-11cp when you can just get T3 at 5/6 cp and be agressive with T34/76s way earlier?
1 Aug 2014, 20:27 PM
#4
avatar of Brachiaraidos

Posts: 627

I used to play T4 a lot with soviets, but now I don't really care anymore


Used to be that the 85 was the only way the russians could ever dream of killing a tiger.

Then At guns got buffed, the 85 got repeated nerfs, german tanks got their turbo drives back and the OKW happened.

Su-85 is a joke now. Su-76 was always a joke. Katty re-nerfed. Why bother?
1 Aug 2014, 20:34 PM
#5
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 614



Used to be that the 85 was the only way the russians could ever dream of killing a tiger.

Then At guns got buffed, the 85 got repeated nerfs, german tanks got their turbo drives back and the OKW happened.

Su-85 is a joke now. Su-76 was always a joke. Katty re-nerfed. Why bother?


Pretty much and the 85 use to be fun as hell to play and a great way to like you put maybe kill a tiger or at least scare it now it is just useless and you hardly see anyone use them now. I mean it is a lot more tougher than a jackson but that is worthless when it cannot do its job which is be a tank killer.
1 Aug 2014, 20:35 PM
#6
avatar of FriedRise

Posts: 132

I used to play T4 a lot with soviets, but now I don't really care anymore. Soviet T4 just doesn't give you a lot of options and requires you to supplement with doctrinal tanks before you can begin aggressive armor pushes. But why be defensive until 9-11cp when you can just get T3 at 5/6 cp and be agressive with T34/76s way earlier?


Exactly this. Try to be aggressive with any T4 unit and you'll throw the game so quickly. When Katyusha was OP last week, there were so many katyusha-abusive Soviet players who were attempting to use the SU-85 and it was hilarious! I took out a couple with a simple faust + circling 222.

So your other option is to camp and get obliterated with Stuka. By the time you have enough CPs for call-ins that allow you to be a bit more aggressive, German will have enough heavy armor that the game is basically over. Plus Relic really don't want you to have BOTH T3 and T4 as soviet, so you're left with very few options.

T34/76s just provide way more utility to help your mid-game than SU-85 could ever hope to, especially now that its AT has been buffed.

SU-85 (and the whole T4 tier) needs attention.
1 Aug 2014, 20:42 PM
#7
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 614



Exactly this. Try to be aggressive with any T4 unit and you'll throw the game so quickly. Your other option is to camp and you'll get obliterated with Stuka. By the time you have enough CPs for call-ins that allow you to be a bit more aggressive, German will have enough heavy armor that the game is basically over. Plus Relic really don't want you to have BOTH T3 and T4 as soviet, so you're left with very few options. T34/76s just provide way more utility to help your mid-game than SU-85 could ever hope to, especially now that its AT has been buffed.

SU-85 (and the whole T4 tier) needs attention.


Yeah I mean that is the only way to go now with soviets I completely agree and that is what I do but on maps like ettlebrook or lienne forest where there are choke points (also the 34s dont do well here because of inability to flank) it would be really handy to have the 85 again as a VP defender or using them to snipe across with inf spotting and still have the mobility as a reversing su85 is harder to flank than just driving past the at guns or having your at guns takin out by anti inf/support weapon call ins or just inf in general.
1 Aug 2014, 20:48 PM
#8
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4527

Exactly this. Try to be aggressive with any T4 unit and you'll throw the game so quickly. When Katyusha was OP last week, there were so many katyusha-abusive Soviet players who were attempting to use the SU-85 and it was hilarious! I took out a couple with a simple faust + circling 222.


That's not even the SU-85's fault, that's just bad players misusing the unit. It's a Tank Destroyer, not an Assault Tank. A Jagdpanzer driven into the enemy by itself can be killed by Conscript's AT Grenade + T-70, but that doesn't make it UP.
1 Aug 2014, 20:54 PM
#9
avatar of FriedRise

Posts: 132

That's not even the SU-85's fault, that's just bad players misusing the unit. It's a Tank Destroyer, not an Assault Tank. A Jagdpanzer driven into the enemy by itself can be killed by Conscript's AT Grenade + T-70, but that doesn't make it UP.


I know. I'm just saying that the SU-85 (or Soviet T4 in general) is so foreign to most people that nobody seems to know how to use it. For what it's worth, Ostheer T4 is also in a pretty bad spot so I guess it's an even trade.
1 Aug 2014, 21:10 PM
#10
avatar of The_Courier

Posts: 665

It could use some mobility, or at least fixing its damn pathing. For a medium sized armored vehicle, this thing seems to move around as if it was as ponderous as an Elefant.

Apart from that, I wouldn't say it's a bad unit. It hurts tanks well enough, and I had it beat twin P4s with an AT gun and/or conscripts as support a few times. The problem is that the SU-76, which I imagine is intended to support it, is not useful at all. Post-nerf Katyusha is decent, but overall Soviet T4 is just that; decent. Meanwhile, you can get T3 which allows for great early game aggression and transition in call-ins which are much stronger than anything in T4.

Really, the problem is far larger. The entire tech structure of the two vanilla factions means that, right now, their T4 is both more expensive and less effective than their call-ins. Because yeah, between spending 200ish fuel on T4+SU-85 or getting an IS-2, the latter will be the better answer the vast majority of the time.
1 Aug 2014, 21:13 PM
#11
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2560 | Subs: 1



That's not even the SU-85's fault, that's just bad players misusing the unit. It's a Tank Destroyer, not an Assault Tank. A Jagdpanzer driven into the enemy by itself can be killed by Conscript's AT Grenade + T-70, but that doesn't make it UP.


You are right, it's not the SU-85s fault. The SU-85 isn't even a bad unit in my opinion. It's a long range turretless tank destroyer and it does its job well.

The thing is, you just can't fit the unit into a proper game plan without either leaving significant weaknesses in your strategy. If you use a makeshift combination of SU-85s+call-in tanks to fill the gaps you are just doing something that can be done both better and earlier by teching to T3.

I've said it before and I will say it again. The soviet tier construction is poor. T3 gives you 2 light anti-infantry armor units (redundancy) and 1 solid medium tank. T4 gives you arty, a tank destroyer, and a hybrid of the two which is useless as you can get better units for the job in the same tier. T4 just gives you 0 attacking potential and the katy is not good enough to sustain a defensive playstyle. Swap the T70 with the SU76 and suddenly both tiers will work and these units will actually have a significant place in the game again.
1 Aug 2014, 21:17 PM
#12
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

Try a Stug.
1 Aug 2014, 21:52 PM
#13
avatar of VetLolcake

Posts: 342

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post1 Aug 2014, 19:55 PMRocket
The su-85 in light of even heavier and more consistent german armor I think needs a pen as well a a minor dmg buff. Currently this thing is just almost hopeless and useless. It is a tank destroyer that cannot destroy tanks. It already and always has had poor maneuverability and obviously it has no turret and terrible rotation I get that it is vulnerable to flanking that is fine it has its downfalls but the fact that it cannot most the time pen a panther and pretty much do nothing to any form of tigers is unacceptable imo. If it cannot reliably pen a panther or tiger what is the point of it pretty much useless might as well drive it into the ice and let it sink. Opinions?


LOL? Try Jagdpazer then. Its sucks compared to SU-85
1 Aug 2014, 22:04 PM
#14
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

SU85 has a great disavantatge that german tanks doesn't have and that is tank's smoke.

When a enemy tank uses smoke, SU85 is rendered useless and you can only pray that clicking Attack Ground you get lucky and give the finishing blow.

At least T34/76 and 85 can rush into the smoke and finish the enemy tank.

Currently, with SU76 useless, SU85 undeperforming and katyusha nerfed again, it is stupid to go T4 as soviets.
1 Aug 2014, 22:11 PM
#15
avatar of Dullahan

Posts: 1383

Soviet t4 honestly needs a price reduction.

There's no choice between Soviet t3 or t4 right now. T3 is just far more solid. Really though, if it wasn't for powerful doctrinal units I don't think Soviets would be very competitive in the late game. The core faction techs too slowly compared to others, and their "shock" units like the T70 and Su76 come out far too late to play an effective role.

Wehrmacht has similar issues with their tech pacing, which is why T4 is a very rare sight indeed.

1 Aug 2014, 22:25 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15491 | Subs: 7



LOL? Try Jagdpazer then. Its sucks compared to SU-85


Sure it does.

Lets ignore fact that all of its stats are better then SU-85 and it fights weaker armor.
1 Aug 2014, 22:31 PM
#17
avatar of KovuTalli

Posts: 332

Just want to point out, when Germans asked for T4 buffs, Allies complain it's fine, so, hey Soviets, T4 is fine, deal with it.

I joke, I joke, I actually managed to take on 2 SU85 with a Okw Panther, get one low and then managed to get it in an abandoned state and get out with the Panther, this was mainly due to some insane RNG and Panther bouncing 1 in every 2 shots and hitting and penetrating with its own, I also want to point out it was at Max range Frontal armour engagement on both, I also had both the 4% Armour increase and 5% reload bulletins on, It may only be a tiny increase to both but it certainly helps the Panther.

So SU85 could do with maybe small buffs. Maybe penetration but it's damage shouldn't really get an increase.
1 Aug 2014, 22:40 PM
#18
avatar of Cannonade

Posts: 752

Panther is wierd like that. Its sort of supposed to counter its own counter (in the SU85), by means of mobility.
1 Aug 2014, 22:52 PM
#19
avatar of KovuTalli

Posts: 332

RNG was just kind to me that game, It could quite easily of seen the Panther die very fast or fail to hit/penetrate.

Panther is weird like that, sadly most other "Mediums" Out class the Panther right now and it's mobility is very map dependent.

But I do feel the SU85 could maybe do with a small buff to penetration.

Do remember however the SU85 is not ment to come in to a fight with other tanks, it is ment to poke at them from afar and retreat behind the lines when comes under pressure.

I think everyone has just become too used to the killing power of Jackson's, KT's and Jagdtigers.
At gun's aren't bad either.

Just because a tank doesn't 2/3 shot things does not mean it is a bad tank, just means it's more of a slugging match. The best use of an SU85 is to force or put a timer on an engagement, they either attack with a weakened tank, stay in the fight and tank damage, or push their tank out of the fight and then push in to where ever it is you are attacking.
1 Aug 2014, 23:47 PM
#20
avatar of Corp.Shephard

Posts: 359

Probably what's been so bad for the SU-85 was the nerf so long ago that trashed it's frontal armor.

KovuTali you say you got lucky but a Panther will penetrate an SU-85 100% of the time at any range.

LOL? Try Jagdpazer then. Its sucks compared to SU-85


Ah! A great piece to use as a comparison.

The Jagdpanzer IV has 230 armor compared to the SU-85's 140.

The Jagdpanzer IV has a target size of 17 compared to the SU-85's 22. This means it is easier to hit the SU-85.

The Jagdpanzer IV has more accuracy; particularly at long range. (JP4: .04 vs SU-85: .025)

Both tanks have compariable speeds and penetration. JPIV avg penetration: 185, SU-85: 190

The Jagdpanzer IV is basically superior in every way aside from the fact that it has a vision cone (but it has higher base vision to compensate). Not to mention it's wonderful five veterancy levels that give it incredible bonuses.

It's a shame really. I used to really like Tier 4 Soviet play but I've not been able to make it work in so long. The armor on the SU-85 is just such a joke. The Panzer 4 penetrate's it's frontal armor ~80% of the time! It's one of the lowest average penetration weapons that the Germans even have that's capable of anti-tank.

Tank hunters usually need two: armor, mobility, or range to be a significant threat. The SU-85 has range. That's it.

Honestly mobility ain't even that great but it works for the Jackson because it packs 50% more damage per shell. It sort of works for the Panther because the Panther has armor and range.
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