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Rifle Grenades

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Neo
2 Apr 2014, 12:07 PM
#1
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471

After the recent patch the damage of all grenades seem to be more consistent, which is a welcome improvement in my book.

Having said that, I think the rifle grenades are now slightly too powerful against Soviet weapon teams and are effectively a hard counter to Soviet machine guns. This is not because they do too much damage but because they have incredible range compared to all other grenades and can be fired while the unit is suppressed.

In the games I have played since the patch, I have seen and have myself overcome even a well-positioned Maxim by using 1-2 rifle nades to wipe the entire squad.

The bottom line is that it is now perfectly normal for two Grenadier squads to walk into the far edge of the Maxim arc of fire, even in no or negative cover, get suppressed and then wipe the Maxim with two grenades.

My suggestion for improvement would be to prevent rifle grenades from being fired by suppressed units. This makes sense from a historical/realism PoV also because a grenade can be thrown from the prone position but a rifle grenade requires the soldier to crouch/semi-stand to fire it which no sane person would do while being suppressed by an MG.

I think the current "meta" prevalence of gren blobs is partly caused by the fact that Maxims not only have a tiny arc of fire but also are effectively hard countered by the very units they're meant to hold back...

Thoughts?


P.S. I am aware that Germans also face/faced a similar problem where lolotov conscripts could get close enough to the MG42 and throw the cocktail while suppressed. As Germans, the solution was always to reposition the MG once the cons were suppressed but this is not an option given the massive range of the rifle grenades - they can be fired from the very edge of the Maxim's arc of fire.
2 Apr 2014, 12:13 PM
#2
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

The thing with rifle grenades is that the range is massive compared to Molotovs or other grenades. I think a range reduction would help. As it stands, its far easier to use a rifle grenade than a molotov, because you can use it in cover or even when far away, vs having to oorah out of cover just to get in range.
2 Apr 2014, 12:22 PM
#3
avatar of MajorasLiepa

Posts: 105

+1
2 Apr 2014, 12:23 PM
#4
avatar of armatak

Posts: 170

Rifle grenades are like oorah+molotov prepatch into a german MG for a lesser cost.

Grens can just storm up to maxim, rifle gren + some shots from pinned and only 1-2 maxim crew members stand forcing instant retreat.

Seems a bit odd for a balance to me.
2 Apr 2014, 12:41 PM
#5
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

I stand by my opinion that conscript and grenadier grenades should be disabled when suppressed. Rifle Grenade has a long range and Molotov is a crew killer. Others are fine since they're both one time ability and short range.
2 Apr 2014, 13:12 PM
#6
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

I stand by my opinion that conscript and grenadier grenades should be disabled when suppressed. Rifle Grenade has a long range and Molotov is a crew killer. Others are fine since they're both one time ability and short range.


Grenadiers can still fire their rifle grenade while in cover from great distance, conscripts still have to move out of cover to get there and are much more likely to get suppressed.
Neo
2 Apr 2014, 13:21 PM
#7
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471



Grenadiers can still fire their rifle grenade while in cover from great distance, conscripts still have to move out of cover to get there and are much more likely to get suppressed.


Yes, I would only suggest making this change for the rifle grenade due to its range. Other grenades should be unaffected, imho.
2 Apr 2014, 13:22 PM
#8
avatar of ATCF
Donator 33

Posts: 587

usually maxims need VET 2 to get the 20% suppression bonus to prevent grens from firing the rifle grenade by pinning them, but i like this new idea about not being able to fire a rifle grenade while suppressed, or make it have a huge scatter so it can even miss its target if you get suppressed
2 Apr 2014, 13:50 PM
#9
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 807

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2014, 13:21 PMNeo


Yes, I would only suggest making this change for the rifle grenade due to its range. Other grenades should be unaffected, imho.


I think the right approach will be this: if a rifle grenade cannot be fired while in suppress, than any type of grenade including molotov should not be allowed to be thrown while in suppress. As long as we want any hmg, soviet or german, to have a more substantial role.
Denying grenade throw while in suppression just for rifle grenade, would be like allowing a P4 to still use blitzkrieg with a broken engine, while denying to a T34 using ram in the same conditions.

Neo
2 Apr 2014, 13:55 PM
#10
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471



I think the right approach will be this: if a rifle grenade cannot be fired while in suppress, than any type of grenade including molotov should not be allowed to be thrown while in suppress. As long as we want any hmg, soviet or german, to have a more substantial role.
Denying grenade throw while in suppression just for rifle grenade, would be like allowing a P4 to still use blitzkrieg with a broken engine, while denying to a T34 using ram in the same conditions.



The rifle grenade has 2-3 times the range of other grenades and does not therefore require the unit firing it to expose itself. This is the key difference. Allowing the rifle grenade to be fired when suppressed rewards poor Grenadier micro and tactics in a way that other grenades do not.

This is not a German vs. Soviet issue - German units also throw other grenades and those are fine as they are, just as the molotov/RNG etc. are for the Soviets.

I would ask all people posting here to please focus on the issue at hand and avoid making this a fanboy contest.
2 Apr 2014, 13:58 PM
#11
2 Apr 2014, 14:00 PM
#12
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 807

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2014, 13:55 PMNeo


The rifle grenade has 2-3 times the range of other grenades and does not therefore require the unit firing it to expose itself. This is the key difference. Allowing the rifle grenade to be fired when suppressed rewards poor Grenadier micro and tactics in a way that other grenades do not.

This is not a German vs. Soviet issue - German units also throw other grenades and those are fine as they are, just as the molotov/RNG etc. are for the Soviets.

I would ask all people posting here to please focus on the issue at hand and avoid making this a fanboy contest.


1. I know a molotov still can be thrown in an MG42 face while in suppression. Same can a rifle grenade. Why does distance matter? The rifle grenade squad it will be anyway in the hmg range, it's not like I rifle-grenade from out of a hmg range, is it?

2. And where exactly in my post here was the fanboy attitude?
2 Apr 2014, 14:09 PM
#13
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2478 | Subs: 21

This is a tough issue, though I do support the rifle nade suppression idea I think there should be some exceptions to this rule like: G43s are able to shoot rifle nades while suppressed because they simply stick the grenade onto the top of the rifle and shoot it, therefore they don't need to crouch. Maybe when suppressed they are only able to fire at a very short distance, rather than a long one.
2 Apr 2014, 14:33 PM
#14
avatar of Puppetmaster
Patrion 310

Posts: 871

I think a lot of people are missing the point. For a conscript to use a molotov on an MG42, it has to run in close and due the massive arc of the MG42, there is a high chance they will get suppressed. For a grenadier to use a rifle grenade, it can still fire it far away (may still be in cover) but even if not, the arc of the Maxim is tiny and so the is a much less risk of becoming suppressed. If you stop them both using them while suppressed, the conscript will be pretty screwed where as the grenadier is all fine and dandy. If you were to introduce the suppression rule without changing the rifle grenade, it would make it even further away from the molotov than it is now.
Neo
2 Apr 2014, 14:36 PM
#15
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471

I think a lot of people are missing the point. For a conscript to use a molotov on an MG42, it has to run in close and due the massive arc of the MG42, there is a high chance they will get suppressed. For a grenadier to use a rifle grenade, it can still fire it far away (may still be in cover) but even if not, the arc of the Maxim is tiny and so the is a much less risk of becoming suppressed. If you stop them both using them while suppressed, the conscript will be pretty screwed where as the grenadier is all fine and dandy. If you were to introduce the suppression rule without changing the rifle grenade, it would make it even further away from the molotov than it is now.


Fully agree with this.
2 Apr 2014, 15:08 PM
#16
avatar of WiFiDi
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 3293

slightly off topic:
imo molotov range i think needs a slight buff :)

on topic:
the trouble is when you do this you make make unsupported mgs very very strong.
2 Apr 2014, 15:11 PM
#17
avatar of Bravus

Posts: 503

Permanently Banned
Prevent only rifle grenade!?

And the molotov???!!!

Or the Magic AT Grenade and Shereks???!!!

All of this, when the animation starts can drop a meteor that will trigger anyway...


2 Apr 2014, 15:12 PM
#18
avatar of tuvok
Benefactor 115

Posts: 786

what I would do to mantain asymmetry and give molotovs the buff they need is decrease their throw animation duration
2 Apr 2014, 15:12 PM
#19
avatar of ferrozoica

Posts: 208

A reduction in range when suppressed could work? (Best of both worlds)

Would prevent a Gren taking on a Maxim 1v1 which is the problem really
Neo
2 Apr 2014, 15:38 PM
#20
avatar of Neo

Posts: 471

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2014, 15:08 PMWiFiDi
slightly off topic:
the trouble is when you do this you make make unsupported mgs very very strong.


Given the Maxim's arc of fire, I don't think you could credibly argue that an unsupported Maxim would be very strong if suppressed Grenadiers couldn't use rifle grenades: a Maxim is extremely vulnerable even to such a "potent" combination as 2 Pioneer squads with *minimum* micro.

The MG42 has a massive advantage as a "leave and forget" type of MG anyway.
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