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T4 and the Panther

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Mr. Someguy
11 Mar 2014, 06:57 AM
#121
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2014, 01:08 AMcoh2player
In the original VCOH, 'engine damage' happened regardless of armor.

Usually one sticky is enough to engine damage a King Tiger.

Making AT nades weak against heavy armor in this game was a design mistake.


On the other hand, in CoH1 the target needed to be in range for the entire animation, or your guys would just walk back toward the vehicle and try again (often taking casualties). Aside from that, PE's AT Grenade didn't give engine damage and it had a fixed trajectory, if the vehicle moved while it was in the air, it hit the ground. The Panzerfaust also didn't give engine damage, and there was a good chance it would even miss.

CoH2's infantry AT abilities are significantly stronger because it almost always does engine damage, and you only need to be in the range for the animation to play, after that it's homing and has unlimited range.
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
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pigsoup
12 Mar 2014, 08:56 AM
#122
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jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2014, 16:36 PMsluzbenik
I just wish they could balance this goddamn game.

Seriously, Soviets are way too good early, or rather, German squads get gibbed too easily. If you take few losses with Soviets and play super well, usually you are looking at a float of 600-800 MP midgame, just retarded.

Having played a lot more 2v2s lately where I can get Panthers out, yeah, I now admit they're kinda ridiculous. Vet 2 is obscene, but very rare (unless they use Elite troops). SU85s can keep them at bay, but you really need to double team them with some guards unless you have an IS-2 or ISU.

In which case in the game I just played, I counter with Tiger Ace, or a Tiger to support a Panther and act as a damage sink.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating - you can't beat the M10 and Hellcats, and vet Airborne from vCOH to counter late Axis armor. Soviets need a mobile tank destroyer that you can micro and has the speed to chase damaged Panthers. I would like the game a lot more with M10s and no SU85s.




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Mr. Someguy
12 Mar 2014, 10:28 AM
#123
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In theory shouldn't the T-34/85 be the Soviet M10? Highly mobile with weak armour with a strong gun.
jump backJump back to quoted post22 Jan 2016, 01:09 AMluvnest
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII

> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
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__deleted__
12 Mar 2014, 11:26 AM
#124
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2014, 10:28 AMMr. Someguy
In theory shouldn't the T-34/85 be the Soviet M10? Highly mobile with weak armour with a strong gun.


Not by far. T34/85 was a multipurpose tank and main batle tank of the soviets starting with late '43 until the end of the war. M10 was a tank destroyer, designed for countering german armor.
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Katitof
12 Mar 2014, 12:19 PM
#125
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2014, 11:26 AM__deleted__


Not by far. T34/85 was a multipurpose tank and main batle tank of the soviets starting with late '43 until the end of the war. M10 was a tank destroyer, designed for countering german armor.

Soviet 85mm was comparable to US 76.2mm on wolverine.
Just to put it here.

And absolutely last thing soviets need is a 9cp medium general purpose tank when there is KV-1, IS-2, ISU, hell even KV-8.

I can't understand relics aversion to tanks that actually can fight tanks on soviet side cost effectively.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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__deleted__
12 Mar 2014, 12:25 PM
#126
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2014, 12:19 PMKatitof

Soviet 85mm was comparable to US 76.2mm on wolverine.
Just to put it here.

And absolutely last thing soviets need is a 9cp medium general purpose tank when there is KV-1, IS-2, ISU, hell even KV-8.

I can't understand relics aversion to tanks that actually can fight tanks on soviet side cost effectively.


Well to be onest I like T34/85s and I think they are verry useful for soviets, I wouldn't call it "last thing they need".
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Katitof
12 Mar 2014, 12:39 PM
#127
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Well, they are useful.
The thing is, I'd gladly trade all of their AI potential to get an AT platform that is actually mobile and would reward flanks against german heavies.

There is also armor perservation issue.

How often do you see vet2 P4? How often do you see vet2 panther? I personally have no problem getting one on vet2 and streamers constantly get them to vet3.
How many months ago have you seen vet2 T34 or any non Su-85/SU-76 armor on soviet side last time?

Germans bitch about 240mp units being one shotted, but its perfectly fine for soviets to have 280/85 - 320/115 units obliterated in a matter of seconds, while panzers smoke and warp speed to safety reliably and effortlessly.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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__deleted__
12 Mar 2014, 13:11 PM
#128
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jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2014, 12:39 PMKatitof
Well, they are useful.
The thing is, I'd gladly trade all of their AI potential to get an AT platform that is actually mobile and would reward flanks against german heavies.

There is also armor perservation issue.

How often do you see vet2 P4? How often do you see vet2 panther? I personally have no problem getting one on vet2 and streamers constantly get them to vet3.
How many months ago have you seen vet2 T34 or any non Su-85/SU-76 armor on soviet side last time?

Germans bitch about 240mp units being one shotted, but its perfectly fine for soviets to have 280/85 - 320/115 units obliterated in a matter of seconds, while panzers smoke and warp speed to safety reliably and effortlessly.


There are manny ways to prove you wrong. I will just tell you to look at the german tanks production costs. There must be a balance - cheaper armor, weaker armor. Expensive armor, better armor. The squad wipe is a serious problem because you loose not only the investment, but the vet progression, and anyway it's cheaper and more effective to reinforce than build new vannilla squads. That's why in middle and endgame germans are crying for infantry while soviets have tones of it. And, furthermore, especially in VP games, infantry will take those points, not tanks. Oh, wait, soviet tanks can also cap;)
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JHeartless
12 Mar 2014, 14:09 PM
#129
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Posts: 1637

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2014, 12:39 PMKatitof
Well, they are useful.
The thing is, I'd gladly trade all of their AI potential to get an AT platform that is actually mobile and would reward flanks against german heavies.

There is also armor perservation issue.

How often do you see vet2 P4? How often do you see vet2 panther? I personally have no problem getting one on vet2 and streamers constantly get them to vet3.
How many months ago have you seen vet2 T34 or any non Su-85/SU-76 armor on soviet side last time?

Germans bitch about 240mp units being one shotted, but its perfectly fine for soviets to have 280/85 - 320/115 units obliterated in a matter of seconds, while panzers smoke and warp speed to safety reliably and effortlessly.


I dont Ram unless I have one shot to live. I constantly get T34s to Vet 2. It doesnt do shit for me but I get it there.....

Now I cant remember the last time I got a T34/85 to vet 2 because they come so late.

I see Vet P4s almost every single game....

Other than that I agree with you. Soviet armor is a bitch to preserve. It like conscripts requires massing them and alot of micro. Oh my T34 is taking damage reverse it behind the other while I flank with my scripts to try and AT nade the rear since the front wont work. Damn no Blitz! Oh well about to Die lets hope for a Ram...

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Mar 2015, 21:57 PMREforever
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
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Kronosaur0s
12 Mar 2014, 14:33 PM
#130
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Posts: 1701

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2014, 12:39 PMKatitof

Germans bitch about 240mp units being one shotted, but its perfectly fine for soviets to have 280/85 - 320/115 units obliterated in a matter of seconds, while panzers smoke and warp speed to safety reliably and effortlessly.


PzG is 360. Is that also good they get *one shotted*?
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Cardboard Tank
12 Mar 2014, 14:54 PM
#131
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Posts: 978

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2014, 12:19 PMKatitof

Soviet 85mm was comparable to US 76.2mm on wolverine.
Just to put it here.
Actually the 85mm isn´t as glorious as some people here state. The German 75mm/L48 on Panzer IV/ StuG, 76mm gun of the Allies and the 85mm gun of the Soviets all had roughly the same armor penetration values. The difference lies in some millimeters. The T-34/85 should have similar values to a Panzer IV, which it has.

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Mar 2014, 12:19 PMKatitof

I can't understand relics aversion to tanks that actually can fight tanks on soviet side cost effectively.
1) Actually the Su-85 does pretty well at it.

2) the Soviets didn´t have anything on par with Panthers. The T-34/85 lacked the frontal armor and gun, the IS-2 the accuracy, mobility and rate of fire. Other German afv like the StuG also performed way better than soviet counterparts.

3) Relics approach to balance this game is asymmetrical.
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Cardboard Tank
12 Mar 2014, 15:00 PM
#132
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Posts: 978

Editing fail leads to double post...
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