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russian armor

Increased RA from nearly squads - Antiblob measure.

12 Jan 2022, 02:59 AM
#1
avatar of aaronmaton

Posts: 15

Units should got extra Recieved Accuracy for each near Friendly Squad (An aura maybe)

We could tweak this with the amount of increased RA and the range of the effect.

That way bigger blobs will exponentially decrease their effective hit points.
12 Jan 2022, 05:17 AM
#2
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212

Units should got extra Recieved Accuracy for each near Friendly Squad (An aura maybe)

We could tweak this with the amount of increased RA and the range of the effect.

That way bigger blobs will exponentially decrease their effective hit points.


This ideal has been mentioned before bit didnt gain much attention. I Think it can be a good mechanic bu at this stage will be too much of a work.

Personally i think a bunch of pp moving around together in open field being easier to hit is very logic.
MMX
12 Jan 2022, 06:04 AM
#3
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

AFAIK there are already similar mechanics in the game, albeit not for all weapons. The incremental accuracy multiplier, for instance, increases the accuracy of an MG according to the number of models in a certain area around the target it's firing at... well, in theory at least, I'm not sure if this is actually working as advertised in the modding tools. But if it does this would basically be what you're suggesting, just implemented a bit differently.
Then there's AoE suppression which also scales with the number of models in the vicinity of the target. There was a thread with a detailed explanation how this works exactly but I can't find it at the moment.
12 Jan 2022, 12:03 PM
#4
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

your antiblobbing tools:

-land mattress MLRS
-BM-13 Katyusha
-Calliope


Additional information: as your enemy increases his infantry army, so too should your rocket artillery count increase.
12 Jan 2022, 14:57 PM
#5
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 932

I mostly like this, it would be worth a testout in some mods or beta (for CoH3 I mean, no chance of coh2 gettin such a huge change)

That bein said, I wonder if it wouldnt impact (read: garden up) pacing

For example now if someone sees two lone infantry squads behind green cover and has 4 of theirs nearby, they just put all 4 together, charge the enemy and force a retreat

With this on, theyd have to draw fire with one or two and flank with rest, or just duke it out cover to cover

Which is kinda the point, but we need to see what such a thing would do pacing of the matches and if it wouldnt lead to basepinning, mapcontrol snowballing, etc.

A nobrainer though, would be making all MGs able do their job reliabily and not get hardcountered by double LMG infantry
12 Jan 2022, 21:41 PM
#6
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 723

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jan 2022, 12:03 PMKatukov
your antiblobbing tools:

-land mattress MLRS
-BM-13 Katyusha
-Calliope


Additional information: as your enemy increases his infantry army, so too should your rocket artillery count increase.


Other than everyone is so tired of having to pic same docs and always having to use katusha as soviet.
13 Jan 2022, 00:13 AM
#7
avatar of aaronmaton

Posts: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jan 2022, 12:03 PMKatukov
your antiblobbing tools:

-land mattress MLRS
-BM-13 Katyusha
-Calliope


Additional information: as your enemy increases his infantry army, so too should your rocket artillery count increase.


Rocket arty usually goes by Tier 3 or above, also you didn't mention Stukas and Panzerwerfers.

IMHO COH2 --an RTS with tactical elements-- should award players who use tactics other than build a massive blob of infantry and attack ground to the enemy base. This only will punish units too close of each other in early phases of the game. If you spread your units you should be fine.
13 Jan 2022, 01:05 AM
#8
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1



Rocket arty usually goes by Tier 3 or above, also you didn't mention Stukas and Panzerwerfers.

IMHO COH2 --an RTS with tactical elements-- should award players who use tactics other than build a massive blob of infantry and attack ground to the enemy base. This only will punish units too close of each other in early phases of the game. If you spread your units you should be fine.



because I don't play axis + the germans by default get a plethora of antiblob tools and blobbing into them is ineffective and wasteful


You can make blobbing work, but to say that it is better than actual strategy is false
13 Jan 2022, 01:06 AM
#9
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jan 2022, 21:41 PMRocket


Other than everyone is so tired of having to pic same docs and always having to use katusha as soviet.


what a shame, anyway...
13 Jan 2022, 19:23 PM
#10
avatar of TanithScout

Posts: 67

great fix on paper. Terrible from a playing the game for newish players pov
13 Jan 2022, 23:17 PM
#11
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 513

great fix on paper. Terrible from a playing the game for newish players pov


Not necessarily, if the game showed a negative debuff over the infantry as seen during certain abilities it would push new players away from blobbing in the first place. The bigger issue would be the increasing debuff, it would be extremely hard to implement correctly now. A simple 10-15% rec acc debuff when 3 units or more are within say 15m of each other would be easy to implement.

Hopefully COH3 implements something similar from the start, for COH2 any rec acc debuff can create new issues and make others even worse. Using OST as an example, early pushes would be expensive as hell due to large target size and 4 man squad along with expensive reinforce. G43 upgrade would need to be tweaked to see any use while Gren mid/late game with LMG would hardly be affected due to long range profile. USF would be screwed all game long due to close range profile.
MMX
14 Jan 2022, 02:20 AM
#12
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


[...]Hopefully COH3 implements something similar from the start, for COH2 any rec acc debuff can create new issues and make others even worse. [...]


Sorry for kinda drawing this part a bit out of context, but I think it's a very good point that's already a problem of sorts in the game.

The incremental accuracy modifier most MGs have already makes them fire more accurate the more models are cramped into their respective scatter cone - essentially the same effect as the proposed negative zeal but backwards. That means, a model in a blob will die quicker than one in a lone squad, which sounds good and somewhat logical on first glance. However, models dying too quickly also means reduced rate of fire, since there's a noticable delay between switching targets if a model dies. That, in turn, reduces the suppression dealt to the squad (and others in the viccinity) as suppression only scales with rate of fire and doesn't depend on actually hitting the target. So, while you're dealing a bit more damage to a single model at a time (irrelevant due to the large combined HP of a blob), the higher accuracy is instead hurting the anti-blob capabilities of your MG. In the end that leads to the scenario we all know and love: an MG in green cover gets easily overrun by a blob even though it should have had plenty of time to suppress each squad two times over.

That being said, incremental accuracy seems to work fine for the few tank MGs that have it, and it might be worthwhile to see if some other hand-held automatic weapons (LMGs for example) could benefit from it as well.
14 Jan 2022, 10:12 AM
#13
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1

What's a blob?

I mean, give me a correct, precise in number, and agreed by anyone definition of a blob.
14 Jan 2022, 12:37 PM
#14
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2022, 10:12 AMEsxile
What's a blob?

I mean, give me a correct, precise in number, and agreed by anyone definition of a blob.

a blob (Blob) is defined in COH2 (company of heroes two) as a tight infantry formation consisting of four up to 6 (and up) combat troops, clustered closely to each other in order to maximize firepower over outnumbered and spread apart units. A blob is characterized as one by virtue of having a massive number of infantry troops, and their lack of micromanagement, leading to crude tactics that work due to the large volume of firepower
14 Jan 2022, 13:17 PM
#15
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2022, 12:37 PMKatukov

a blob (Blob) is defined in COH2 (company of heroes two) as a tight infantry formation consisting of four up to 6 (and up) combat troops, clustered closely to each other in order to maximize firepower over outnumbered and spread apart units. A blob is characterized as one by virtue of having a massive number of infantry troops, and their lack of micromanagement, leading to crude tactics that work due to the large volume of firepower


four up to 6 combat troops
You mean squads or models? Also why this arbitrary number?

Edit: anyway let's be honest, you can't have a good answer to this. Let's take three examples why debuff for "blob" isn't working.

1- Your answer is squads. So this mean that 4 squads of 3 models, 12 models in total, would receive the debuff while 3 squads of 4 models, 12 models in total wouldn't.

2- Your answer is models. So this mean 4 squads of 4 models, 16 models in total, would receive the debuff but 3 squad of 7 (conscripts), 21 in total, would not receive the debuff.

3- Your answer is an arbitraty >16 (4 squad of 4 models) then again 3 squads of conscripts would receive the debuff while not being particularly any better than 4 squads of grenadiers or 4 squads of Obers or Falls.

Then goes the usual implementation dilema, if I have 4 squads close-by defending my area Am I blobbing? etc...
14 Jan 2022, 13:53 PM
#16
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 321

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2022, 10:12 AMEsxile
What's a blob?

I mean, give me a correct, precise in number, and agreed by anyone definition of a blob.


Mobile squads; more than 3 of the same
Team weapons/arty pieces/tanks; more than 2 of the same

Particuliary A-moving the squads/tanks togerther, easily recognized by the way they take up formation etc., emphasizes this.



i.e. 2 HMG's, not facing the same way = covering your flanks // 3 HMG's, facing in 1 direction = blobbing, though I think there are a lot of 'ifs' involved, but this is my definition of the word when I'm using it.
14 Jan 2022, 14:13 PM
#17
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 513

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2022, 13:17 PMEsxile


You mean squads or models? Also why this arbitrary number?

Edit: anyway let's be honest, you can't have a good answer to this. Let's take three examples why debuff for "blob" isn't working.

1- Your answer is squads. So this mean that 4 squads of 3 models, 12 models in total, would receive the debuff while 3 squads of 4 models, 12 models in total wouldn't.

2- Your answer is models. So this mean 4 squads of 4 models, 16 models in total, would receive the debuff but 3 squad of 7 (conscripts), 21 in total, would not receive the debuff.

3- Your answer is an arbitraty >16 (4 squad of 4 models) then again 3 squads of conscripts would receive the debuff while not being particularly any better than 4 squads of grenadiers or 4 squads of Obers or Falls.

Then goes the usual implementation dilema, if I have 4 squads close-by defending my area Am I blobbing? etc...


I think it should come down to squad number and spacing. For your first example your worrying about model total as your comparing squads. The way the game is balanced the 4 squads with less models would represent mainly axis(Ost, OKW elite, Tommies)these squads already have higher DPS to compensate for their lower model count. So receiving the debuff would make sense since it would be stronger than the 3 squads with 4 models.
14 Jan 2022, 14:39 PM
#18
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 599


IMHO COH2 --an RTS with tactical elements-- should award players who use tactics other than build a massive blob of infantry and attack ground to the enemy base.


This is exactly why I prefer CoH and DoW over Starcraft. I played Starcraft and the combat was shallow as a puddle. It's all about how many units you produce over your enemy. Doesn't matter where they stand or which unit they prioritize or even if you keep them alive. The fact that Starcraft style "build and throw away" strategies can be effective in this game does it a huge disservice.
14 Jan 2022, 14:44 PM
#19
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 599

I personally think that a simpler implementation of an "anti-blob" mechanic is to simply make the "near-miss hit" mechanic work for all weapons.

I don't recall the exact name of it, but some weapons like the MG can still roll for a hit against nearby squads after missing the squad its firing at. This should be the case for every weapon in the game. Think about it: you're firing your garand at one squad with three others behind it. You miss one entity. How likely is it that you hit one of the twelve men standing behind that one? Very likely indeed. That's my opinion, anyways.
14 Jan 2022, 14:46 PM
#20
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2022, 13:17 PMEsxile


You mean squads or models? Also why this arbitrary number?

Edit: anyway let's be honest, you can't have a good answer to this. Let's take three examples why debuff for "blob" isn't working.

1- Your answer is squads. So this mean that 4 squads of 3 models, 12 models in total, would receive the debuff while 3 squads of 4 models, 12 models in total wouldn't.

2- Your answer is models. So this mean 4 squads of 4 models, 16 models in total, would receive the debuff but 3 squad of 7 (conscripts), 21 in total, would not receive the debuff.

3- Your answer is an arbitraty >16 (4 squad of 4 models) then again 3 squads of conscripts would receive the debuff while not being particularly any better than 4 squads of grenadiers or 4 squads of Obers or Falls.

Then goes the usual implementation dilema, if I have 4 squads close-by defending my area Am I blobbing? etc...


squads, obviously.


also your argument doesn't make sense because squads have different stats. Low quantity squads (grenadiers, obers, fallshirmjagers) have less men, but due to their cost, the individual models have considerably better stats than their counterparts. larger squad size squads benefit more from health instead


the reason why such an implementation is impossible is that coh2 is simply equipped to have blobbing of some sort by design, it only deviates how refined your tactics are
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