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Commander Update Beta 2021 - Soviet Feedback

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2 Apr 2021, 11:43 AM
#81
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2021, 11:22 AMMMX


the reload reduction from 5-ish to 3.25 s may sound pretty over the top at first glance, but if you factor in additional delays (wind up/wind down, aim time, etc) it comes down to about a 30% increased ROF. that's pretty substantial for sure but i don't think it is op, simply because we're only talking about the barrage here, not autofire. i'd expect the 120mm to be quite a bit better than the pack howie at close range and about equal at max range with these changes, but we'll see if that turns out to be too powerful. at the very least it's likely that a lot more people will try this thing out again for once after being left in the dust for quite a while, so it should become pretty obvious rather quickly if this buff overshot the mark.


I don't think the RoF will be over the top, it should be about the same as the 82mm now with more AOE and range but less accuracy. It will be better than 82mm that way, its doctrinal after all. But you will need 82mm for sight nevertheless, that will reduce the number of 120mm you will purchase by one at least.
Imo the question is how good is the Vet1 barrage. This ability has the potential to overperform of course. Is it a exact copy of the USF mortar HT Vet1 barrage? Does somebody know?
2 Apr 2021, 11:44 AM
#82
avatar of Olfin

Posts: 167

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2021, 11:22 AMMMX


the reload reduction from 5-ish to 3.25 s may sound pretty over the top at first glance, but if you factor in additional delays (wind up/wind down, aim time, etc) it comes down to about a 30% increased ROF. that's pretty substantial for sure but i don't think it is op, simply because we're only talking about the barrage here, not autofire. i'd expect the 120mm to be quite a bit better than the pack howie at close range and about equal at max range with these changes, but we'll see if that turns out to be too powerful. at the very least it's likely that a lot more people will try this thing out again for once after being left in the dust for quite a while, so it should become pretty obvious rather quickly if this buff overshot the mark.


Yes I agree with u, but I noticed that only few amount of people are playing the beta, yesterday I wait for a long time searching for a game with my brother and we couldn't find any, eventually we go back to the live version, anyway maybe this is off the topic.
2 Apr 2021, 11:58 AM
#83
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



That's the point. This cheap ability shouldn't be able to almost oneshot (super)heavies. With the reduced pen, its effectiveness against heavy vehicles will be halved and more in line with its cost. It'll still pen the rear armor of mediums at roughly 90-100% chance. It still has significant deflection damage anyway.

How does it compare now to single AT strafe from CAS doctrine?
2 Apr 2021, 12:02 PM
#84
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


How does it compare now to single AT strafe from CAS doctrine?
Probably not very favorably anymore. Though CAS single pass is more expensive.
2 Apr 2021, 12:24 PM
#85
avatar of NaOCl

Posts: 369

Partisans need to be addressed still
2 Apr 2021, 12:35 PM
#86
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919

Probably not very favorably anymore. Though CAS single pass is more expensive.


CAS Anti Tank Strafe = 110 MU
IL-2 Rocket Strafe = 125 MU

Can't see this. IL-2 is worse now while costing more MU (similar to JU-87 Loiter in comparison to P-47 loiter).

Does nobody thinks about reducing the price of an ability if nerfing it heavily? IL-2 Rocket strafe should at least penetrate axis tanks from the rear at 100% chance, that would reduce its performance heavily already since you can't take the shortest possible route for your plane approach anymore. As a result this leads to a higher chance to miss completely. Keep ihn mind this is a strafe after all. For a mere 75 MU more you get the Ju-87 AT Loiter, which will deal a guaranted ton of damage if you use it correctly.
2 Apr 2021, 12:37 PM
#87
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2182 | Subs: 2



CAS Anti Tank Strafe = 110 MU
IL-2 Rocket Strafe = 125 MU

Can't see this. IL-2 is worse now while costing more MU (similar to JU-87 Loiter in comparison to P-47 loiter).

Does nobody thinks about reducing the price of an ability if nerfing it heavily? IL-2 Rocket strafe should at least penetrate axis tanks from the rear at 100% chance, that would reduce its performance heavily already since you can't take the shortest possible route for your plane approach anymore. As a result this leads to a higher chance to miss completely. Keep ihn mind this is a strafe after all. For a mere 75 MU more you get the Ju-87 AT Loiter, which will deal a guaranted ton of damage if you use it correctly.


Everything is easier. Remove "Ram", change the ability of the T-34 and then there are no excuses for the nerf.
2 Apr 2021, 12:47 PM
#88
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Everything is easier. Remove "Ram", change the ability of the T-34 and then there are no excuses for the nerf.
it's not just RAM, in 2v2 and above button, tread immobilize ability(AEC) from team mate are much safer, stronger options.
2 Apr 2021, 12:48 PM
#89
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



CAS Anti Tank Strafe = 110 MU
IL-2 Rocket Strafe = 125 MU

Can't see this. IL-2 is worse now while costing more MU (similar to JU-87 Loiter in comparison to P-47 loiter).

Does nobody thinks about reducing the price of an ability if nerfing it heavily? IL-2 Rocket strafe should at least penetrate axis tanks from the rear at 100% chance, that would reduce its performance heavily already since you can't take the shortest possible route for your plane approach anymore. As a result this leads to a higher chance to miss completely. Keep ihn mind this is a strafe after all. For a mere 75 MU more you get the Ju-87 AT Loiter, which will deal a guaranted ton of damage if you use it correctly.

The JU 87 AT loiter can be shot down before it even has a chance to complete a single pass. P47 can complete a single pass before it's killed though.
2 Apr 2021, 12:50 PM
#90
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2182 | Subs: 2

it's not just RAM, in 2v2 and above button, tread immobilize ability(AEC) from team mate are much safer, stronger options.


PAK-40 stunning projectile. Each side has something similar, but I don't see the other abilities being nerfed to a pointless state.
2 Apr 2021, 12:51 PM
#91
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



CAS Anti Tank Strafe = 110 MU
IL-2 Rocket Strafe = 125 MU

Can't see this. IL-2 is worse now while costing more MU (similar to JU-87 Loiter in comparison to P-47 loiter).

Does nobody thinks about reducing the price of an ability if nerfing it heavily? IL-2 Rocket strafe should at least penetrate axis tanks from the rear at 100% chance, that would reduce its performance heavily already since you can't take the shortest possible route for your plane approach anymore. As a result this leads to a higher chance to miss completely. Keep ihn mind this is a strafe after all. For a mere 75 MU more you get the Ju-87 AT Loiter, which will deal a guaranted ton of damage if you use it correctly.

Why should it always penetrate?

Tanks can penetrate rear armor because flanking is considered good play and should be rewarded.

There is not a lot of skill involved call in planes from a direction. A player with tank outside his base should not punished because his opponent can decide the direction where his planes will enter the field.
2 Apr 2021, 12:52 PM
#92
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



PAK-40 stunning projectile. Each side has something similar, but I don't see the other abilities being nerfed to a pointless state.
Well, CAS single pass can't kill a full Health 800hp tank unlike IL2 which could bring down a 960 HP Panther.
2 Apr 2021, 12:53 PM
#93
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2182 | Subs: 2

Well, CAS single pass can't kill a full Health 800hp tank unlike IL2 which could bring down a 960 HP Panther.


Oh boy, he can.
2 Apr 2021, 12:59 PM
#94
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919



Oh boy, he can.


Yeah, you are right. In teamgames both teams have the ability to stun/immobilize tanks to oblitertae it with a strafe. Why CAS AT strafe shoudn't be nerferd in the same way then?
2 Apr 2021, 13:04 PM
#95
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 919

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Apr 2021, 12:51 PMVipper

Why should it always penetrate?

Tanks can penetrate rear armor because flanking is considered good play and should be rewarded.

There is not a lot of skill involved call in planes from a direction. A player with tank outside his base should not punished because his opponent can decide the direction where his planes will enter the field.


Immobilizing a tank long enough to bring your strafe in from the rear is considered good play and should be rewarded.

We already talking about a penetration nerf from 380 to around 140. But this is clearly not enough for you. I want to point out in addition that IL-2 rocket strafe only exists at a commander without any doctrinal tank on its own, so this ability is meant to make up for the lack of the strong doctrinal soviet tanks in tank battles.
2 Apr 2021, 13:05 PM
#96
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



Oh boy, he can.
Show me that it can.
2 Apr 2021, 13:11 PM
#97
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Immobilizing a tank long enough to bring your strafe in from the rear is considered good play and should be rewarded.

It is ready reward, it does not explain why in your opinion that chance should be 100% for all axis vehicles.


We already talking about a penetration nerf from 380 to around 140. But this is clearly not enough for you.

Pls avoid personal comment especially in these thread they non constructive.

I have nothing do with change, this was a balance team suggestion nor I have ever suggest it something like.

I have simply asked you a question


I want to point out in addition that IL-2 rocket strafe only exists at a commander without any doctrinal tank on its own, so this ability is meant to make up for the lack of the strong doctrinal soviet tanks in tank battles.

And that is the case for many Soviet commander. Nor all Soviet commander should have a doctrinal tank, else these tank should become stock.

Making the commander a single trick pony by expecting rocket strafe to carry the commander is not a great idea either.
2 Apr 2021, 13:16 PM
#98
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Why CAS AT strafe shoudn't be nerferd in the same way then?


Because T-34 ram. Axis stunning abilities (only Target Weakpoint and variants) are defensively orientated. You can't charge into a (heavy) tank and call down the Stuka strafe with them, unlike with a T-34 and IL-2 rockets. Combined with lower cost, it'd be okay for the IL-2 rockets to be less effective.
2 Apr 2021, 13:22 PM
#99
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Because T-34 ram. Axis stunning abilities (only Target Weakpoint and variants) are defensively orientated. You can't charge into a (heavy) tank and call down the Stuka strafe with them, unlike with a T-34 and IL-2 rockets. Combined with lower cost, it'd be okay for the IL-2 rockets to be less effective.

Didn't you literally just neutered ram?

I could see that as an argument before it was changed, but not anymore.
I can't see how 2 crippled abilities add up to single potent one.
2 Apr 2021, 13:25 PM
#100
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2182 | Subs: 2



Because T-34 ram. Axis stunning abilities (only Target Weakpoint and variants) are defensively orientated. You can't charge into a (heavy) tank and call down the Stuka strafe with them, unlike with a T-34 and IL-2 rockets. Combined with lower cost, it'd be okay for the IL-2 rockets to be less effective.


Then why are you trying so hard to close your eyes to the T-34 ability. But just nerf it by soft removing it from the game. A unique situation arises - a nerf of an ability, but at the same time, there is talk about how we want to leave a unique ability. Just change the T-34 ability.
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