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Penals, the Elephant in the room

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3 Jan 2021, 18:34 PM
#121
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13286 | Subs: 1

For penals to be meta they have to be horrendously op or Cons have to be so awful that they make up for the insane amounts of utility you lose by going T1.

Frankly Im not sure you can fix that unless the tech gets reworked.

Glad to see we agree.
3 Jan 2021, 20:16 PM
#122
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

For penals to be meta they have to be horrendously op or Cons have to be so awful that they make up for the insane amounts of utility you lose by going T1.

Frankly Im not sure you can fix that unless the tech gets reworked.


Wat kind of rework would you think be best?

Imo t1 and t2 reduce the cost of eachother esp mp wise, then backteching doesnt hurt so much. And t3 can come earlier/cheaper with both t2 and t1 built, and with t70 behind and extra unlock or tied with mr. This way su76 and m5 come on the field earlier.
3 Jan 2021, 23:40 PM
#123
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1



Wat kind of rework would you think be best?

Imo t1 and t2 reduce the cost of eachother esp mp wise, then backteching doesnt hurt so much. And t3 can come earlier/cheaper with both t2 and t1 built, and with t70 behind and extra unlock or tied with mr. This way su76 and m5 come on the field earlier.


Cheaper back teching would be a solid step. If penals didnt lock you out of support weapons so much then maybe they would be much more useful.

Ontop of that Penals could go for a faster opening, especially if they are going to stay as the early game but less scaling role compared to cons.
4 Jan 2021, 08:28 AM
#124
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jan 2021, 18:34 PMVipper

Glad to see we agree.


You want to make t1 cheaper to back-tech to? And you want a faster t1 opening? I find that hard to believe
4 Jan 2021, 08:34 AM
#125
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13286 | Subs: 1



You want to make t1 cheaper to back-tech to? And you want a faster t1 opening? I find that hard to believe

Did I agree with that post or the previous one?

Point here is buffing Penal is not a good direction and the T1/Penal need a redesign.

Making soviet having to build all 4 building would be a redesign and I can't agree or disagree until they are the designed is explained in detail.
4 Jan 2021, 08:41 AM
#126
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 08:34 AMVipper

Did I agree with that post or the previous one?

I know which one you agreed with, but you have emphasized penals as the problem the entire time. It's clearly just teching

And the idea that they are still OP is absurd
4 Jan 2021, 08:44 AM
#127
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13286 | Subs: 1


I know which one you agreed with, but you have emphasized penals as the problem the entire time. It's clearly just teching

And the idea that they are still OP is absurd

Both are the problem.

What I have said and continue to say is that Penal are badly designed, you used the term op not me.
4 Jan 2021, 08:47 AM
#128
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 08:44 AMVipper

you used the term op not me.

Who cares who used a fucking term, you want them nerfed. It's just a shorthand

Their drawbacks are currently worse than their potential. Doesn't sound like a unit that should be nerfed
4 Jan 2021, 09:30 AM
#129
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13286 | Subs: 1


Who cares who used a fucking term,...

I care because you put words in mouth that I have not used and you are creating the impression that I have said thing that I have not. That is what another user does and I like to believe that your post are actually of higher level.


you want them nerfed. It's just a shorthand

No you are mistaken. I want them redesigned, I want all unit to be useful.


Their drawbacks are currently worse than their potential. Doesn't sound like a unit that should be nerfed

And if you remove their draw back their true potential will be reveled.
4 Jan 2021, 09:32 AM
#130
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 09:30 AMVipper

I want all unit to be useful.

The sheer amount of completely random and crippling nerfs you suggest to vast array of allied units, specifically penals, coupled with instant paranoia the moment any of the weaker unit actually gets buffed(3rd penal ptrs being most recent example) directly contradicts that statement.
4 Jan 2021, 09:34 AM
#131
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 09:30 AMVipper

No you are mistaken. I want them redesigned, I want all unit to be useful.


And if you remove their draw back their true potential will be reveled.


That's contradicting yourself. Didn't you say less than a week ago that Penals are fine and that only T1 needed a redesign, or did you change your opinion of the unit? I can provide your quote too.

Does it mean you changed your mind and that Penals now need nerfs?
4 Jan 2021, 09:51 AM
#132
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 09:30 AMVipper

I care because you put words in mouth that I have not used

If talk about how penals have been power creeped it needs to stop, that sounds like a suggestion of nerfs

I also don't see how the current trajectory isn't an attempt at making them more useful. Making the AT variant better at AT seems to be doing just that
4 Jan 2021, 10:15 AM
#133
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13286 | Subs: 1


If talk about how penals have been power creeped it needs to stop, that sounds like a suggestion of nerfs

If I I want Penal nerfed that is what I would have suggested. I would suggest sticking what has been suggested instead of the "sound" of things. This is what other users do and you post are usually of better quality than that.



I also don't see how the current trajectory isn't an attempt at making them more useful. Making the AT variant better at AT seems to be doing just that

It is an attempt at making them more useful but in the wrong direction. It another bandaid on stock pile of banaids.

Allowing penal to fill all role from superior AI, to Anti LV to, to anti medium is simply bad design especially in faction with some many unit available to them stock and doctrinal.

T1 and Penal simply need a redesign, with the current designs they will either dominate the meta or become irrelevant.
4 Jan 2021, 10:27 AM
#134
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 10:15 AMVipper

If I I want Penal nerfed that is what I would have suggested

Your "suggestions" are not clear at all. The point you most often repeat is "they simply need to be redesigned" which itself is a contradictory statement. There's nothing simple about redesigning a unit and tech structure

Not to mention "redesigning" can still be nerfing. Those two things aren't opposite
jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 10:15 AMVipper

Allowing penal to fill all role from superior AI, to Anti LV to, to anti medium is simply bad design especially in faction with some many unit available to them stock and doctrinal.

If this is your problem then the only thing needed is to make the SVT and ptrs variants two different squads in the same tier. That would actually be a "simple" change. But really not necessary
4 Jan 2021, 10:32 AM
#135
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13286 | Subs: 1


Your "suggestions" are not clear at all. The point you most often repeat is "they simply need to be redesigned" which itself is a contradictory statement. There's nothing simple about redesigning a unit and tech structure

Not to mention "redesigning" can still be nerfing. Those two things aren't opposite

Redesign something is simpler than trying to force a bad design to work.


If this is your problem then the only thing needed is to make the SVT and ptrs variants two different squads in the same tier. That would actually be a "simple" change. But really not necessary

That would be improvement with better result but it would be a redesign of Penal battalion since they would be an AI unit only.
4 Jan 2021, 10:34 AM
#136
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 10:32 AMVipper

Redesign something is simpler than trying to force a bad design to work.


That would be improvement with better result but it would be a redesign of Penal battalion since they would be an AI unit only.


What about you actually tell the forum clearly what you want with the unit instead of just avoiding the conversation by telling us over and over again that it needs a "redesign". Also, "redesign" is not something that can be easily achieved, yet you keep wrongly insisting that it is the case - There is more to game design than just throwing the sentence "simply redesign" around.

Also, you said repeatedly in a different thread that Penals are fine, but only T1 needed "redesign". Did you change your opinion of the unit?
4 Jan 2021, 10:54 AM
#137
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2099 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Jan 2021, 10:32 AMVipper

Redesign something is simpler than trying to force a bad design to work.


That would be improvement with better result but it would be a redesign of Penal battalion since they would be an AI unit only.


How are you going to redesign T1? This will definitely require adding a new unit to make T1 an alternative to T2. Adding new units is impossible.
4 Jan 2021, 13:40 PM
#138
avatar of Flying Dustbin

Posts: 270 | Subs: 1

What if Penals were in the HQ, but you had to have T1 or T2 up to build them?
Making them more accessible would fix most of their problems I think.

Or maybe take notes from US teching. For example, for T1, the only available unit is Penals, unless you upgrade, and T2, only Zis. Make them each a bit cheaper, but you can only tech T3 if you build both, or fully upgrade one.



How are you going to redesign T1? This will definitely require adding a new unit to make T1 an alternative to T2. Adding new units is impossible.


I feel like the only good option is to shift the M-42 or AT Partisans into T1, so you're not forced to go for PTRS. The Partisans come with PTRS, and you can pay munition for the stolen Schreck, similar to how AT Tommies work.
4 Jan 2021, 14:04 PM
#139
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

Sorry can I ask what exactly make Soviet Tier1 a problems/ bad design?

Is it because of Penal is much better AI than Cons which reliable for AI in early game? Or because Penal doesnt require any side tech which make them a good choice over Cons? Or Penal being much better than M3 & Snip?
Or all of those reasons?
4 Jan 2021, 14:29 PM
#140
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97

Sorry can I ask what exactly make Soviet Tier1 a problems/ bad design?

Is it because of Penal is much better AI than Cons which reliable for AI in early game? Or because Penal doesnt require any side tech which make them a good choice over Cons? Or Penal being much better than M3 & Snip?
Or all of those reasons?


Since It seems you are new to the game I will explain.

1) You soft lock yourself out of MGs, Mortars and most important ATGs.
2) Penals bleed very easy due to their RA and they cost a lot to reinforce specially early on.
3) They have 0 utility. They are either decent AI or Shitty AT atm.
4) Building T1 for sniper means that you basically pay 500 mp and 10 fuel just to get a single unit and if you get something else from T1 then you lose all early map presence and will struggle to get any ground.
5) No snares meaning that since you don't have any AT measures you will struggle to fight vehicles.

Clown car + Penals against OKW is the only semi-viable thing in T1 atm. Or if you are for example VonIvan\Kimbo you might pull off T1 against anyone.

All of this for 1v1 and most of this for team modes.
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