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German Infantry Doctrine

26 Jun 2020, 17:52 PM
#1
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 311

Ost has become really good in the late days because of the newly popular German Infantry Doc., especially because of the 5th mean Gren upgrade.

Most Ost players are forced to choose that commander to be in pair with the other factions, but if you choose not to go with it the faction is not that good and is a bit UP.


So the question is. Should the 5th men gren squad be a stock upgrade? Please elaborate your answer
26 Jun 2020, 18:06 PM
#2
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

No, the 4man LMG Grens should be buffed instead.
26 Jun 2020, 19:45 PM
#4
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

No 4 men grens should be buffed via lmg esp on long range.
26 Jun 2020, 19:58 PM
#5
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1947

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jun 2020, 17:52 PMLeo251
Ost has become really good in the late days because of the newly popular German Infantry Doc., especially because of the 5th mean Gren upgrade.

Most Ost players are forced to choose that commander to be in pair with the other factions, but if you choose not to go with it the faction is not that good and is a bit UP.


So the question is. Should the 5th men gren squad be a stock upgrade? Please elaborate your answer


Probably not, just because it would be a lot of work to rebalance. They were already given a damage multiplier of 0.8 at vet 3, giving them the effective hit points of a 5 man squad already. The veteran sergeant makes them really tough, adding a lmg on top of a 5th man and a damage multiplier would be over the top. You're also giving each Ost commander a 6th ability.

Stated another way, people are playing that commander because they think it is OP. Now you want to expand that to every Ost commander.

26 Jun 2020, 20:23 PM
#6
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

5 men should absolutely not be a stock option. Few, if any, would pick the LMG42 upgrade if were to become reality.
26 Jun 2020, 21:28 PM
#7
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
4man buffed, and 5man should not get any extra RA bonuses.
27 Jun 2020, 02:15 AM
#8
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

I made a thread on the issues with 5man grens and why they're OP

They have all of the perks of a four man squad like extra Faust range, grenade, vet3 damage reduction etc. But also none of the weaknesses as they are fiveman and reduced RA. Basically they're riflemen on steroids, meanwhile cons crying in the corner
27 Jun 2020, 04:02 AM
#9
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

I would suggest buffing 4 man stock squads. Got example, the lmg upgrade also gives a RA bonus, or something like that. Early grenadiers losing 1v1 is what I consider a balanced design, if we're to consider that hmg42 is able to secure early game.
27 Jun 2020, 06:43 AM
#10
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

Could lmg grens get some version of "to the last man" with vet? Gives them something to offset how punished they are for dropping a model
27 Jun 2020, 08:38 AM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Grenadier have recieved a number of buffs already.

If they do not cut it the other mainline needs nerfs.
27 Jun 2020, 08:40 AM
#12
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17866 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2020, 08:38 AMVipper
Grenadier have recieved a number of buffs already.

If they do not cut it the other mainline needs nerfs.

The only infantry grens are supposed to stand up to are cons and that match up works perfectly fine.

You will NEVER in any world where balance is a real actual thing have grens stand up to tommies or rifles with upgrades because of sheer, massive investment difference.
27 Jun 2020, 08:42 AM
#13
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2020, 08:40 AMKatitof

The only infantry grens are supposed to stand up to are cons and that match up works perfectly fine.

You will NEVER in any world where balance is a real actual thing have grens stand up to tommies or rifles with upgrades because of sheer, massive investment difference.

PLS do not quote me if what I you are going to post is irrelevant to what you are quoting.

I have not suggested that Grenadiers should beat riflemen or IS one on one.
27 Jun 2020, 08:47 AM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17866 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2020, 08:42 AMVipper

PLS do not quote me if what I you are going to post is irrelevant to what you are quoting.

I have not suggested that Grenadiers should beat riflemen or IS one on one.

Pls go back to that dream world of yours.

No, you have not, but you seem to be under the impression there is a logical reason why this cheapest mainline with no side costs and access to all support units at once should not be stomped by more expensive squads with up to twice muni invested into them and up to additional 250mp/30-50fu.

If you want to play with mainline infantry spam, there are other factions for it and even a doctrine for ost.
27 Jun 2020, 08:48 AM
#15
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

I'm not a fan of this squad size creep; 7-man Cons was already unnecessary, but 5-man Grens is just silly. There's a reason at least one player on all these tournament team games seems to go Ost Inf now. I'm certainly not saying that the doctrine couldn't have done with changes (it was very Munitions-heavy and rarely got used in MP) but I think giving the faction's main squad an extra man maybe overdid it, as that added survivability is always going to be a better investment than extra DPS.
27 Jun 2020, 09:45 AM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2020, 08:47 AMKatitof

Pls go back to that dream world of yours.

No, you have not, but you seem to be under the impression there is a logical reason why this cheapest mainline with no side costs and access to all support units at once should not be stomped by more expensive squads with up to twice muni invested into them and up to additional 250mp/30-50fu.

If you want to play with mainline infantry spam, there are other factions for it and even a doctrine for ost.

Pls stick to what I have actually posted and stop responding to things I have not posted.
27 Jun 2020, 10:27 AM
#17
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

I'm not a fan of this squad size creep; 7-man Cons was already unnecessary, but 5-man Grens is just silly. There's a reason at least one player on all these tournament team games seems to go Ost Inf now. I'm certainly not saying that the doctrine couldn't have done with changes (it was very Munitions-heavy and rarely got used in MP) but I think giving the faction's main squad an extra man maybe overdid it, as that added survivability is always going to be a better investment than extra DPS.


The 7th man on cons whas the right choice. Cons are about durability and utility. As six men they had no late game outside doctrines. Dps and dps gained from upgrades trump hp, cons had 0.6 rec acc and rng 16 damage rifles once and still they got hammered by any and all inf. Snaring became their only role wich very often resulted in even vetted cons being wiped. Again imo dps trumps hp.

7th man perfectly fits cons focus on durability and utility. Merge benefits greatly and they can survice snaring more often and outlast most basic inf. Their dps doesnt increase that much esp at long range.

Grens are about long range dps low hp higher dps, while supporting and being supported by team weapons. Adding 5th man stock with their current damage per model is bad. Just as making ppsh stock for cons is.

Imo the lmg should be buffed at longer ranges esp to pick of models as they aproach. At bp 3 or t4 this could be a passive or active ability. This would fit grens more without redoing or nerfing all other main lines.
27 Jun 2020, 10:28 AM
#18
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

There is an issue with power creep, but it's Ostheer power creep.

Tommies have had nothing but steady nerfs since release (removal of cover bonus RA, 0.10 nerf on RA, Bren nerfs, popcap increase, rifle nerf, removal of scoped Enfield's at vet, nerf to vet pyro LoS). This was partially mitigated by buffs to moving accuracy, bolster and brens being made cheaper. Bolster now being the main crutch to keep them viable.

Since these changes grens have not seen a single nerf, instead they have been given five man, T4 bonus in reinforce, vet3 damage reduction to prevent wipes and faster capping. This is on top of all their strengths that they have retained (longest range snare, broken rifle nades,Faust out the gate, free upgrades, cheapest mainline in the game).

Volks were at least nerfed in cost when they were judged too cost efficient, but current fiveman grens just blow old volks out the water for what they offer. You can just play way too safe with a solid wall of grenspam in a way USF have to invest pretty much all their muni into (as well as decent chunk of mp and fuel) with upgraded rifles.
27 Jun 2020, 10:40 AM
#20
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2020, 08:40 AMKatitof
You will NEVER in any world where balance is a real actual thing have grens stand up to tommies or rifles with upgrades because of sheer, massive investment difference.


Agreed

Make Grens cost 300mp and absolutely nuke every single mainline with 0 risk.

Balance
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