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What is the rationale behind tier upgrades?

20 Jun 2020, 14:38 PM
#21
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17316 | Subs: 8

If people spam Grenadiers and therefore dont need Pgrens anymore once they arrive, then one >might< assume that the problem is related to tier 1 and not Pgrens themselves. But why balance tier 1 in balance patches when you can just redesign a faction (once again)? <444>_<444>^_^

What the F are you talking about?
T1 is balanced and from the very moment PGs started appearing earlier, whole 1v1 META emerged about rushing them.

20 Jun 2020, 14:43 PM
#22
avatar of Senseo1990

Posts: 317

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2020, 14:38 PMKatitof

What the F are you talking about?
T1 is balanced and from the very moment PGs started appearing earlier, whole 1v1 META emerged about rushing them.


T1 is probably too strong, if its units make Pgrens obsolete. As somebody argued: "They arrived after you had already built your army" -> Your army was complete before they arrived and only supposed to be enhanced with at guns and vehicles. Thats not what Ostheer was designed to be.
20 Jun 2020, 14:45 PM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17316 | Subs: 8



T1 is probably too strong, if its units make Pgrens obsolete. As somebody argued: "They arrived after you had already built your army" -> Your army was complete before they arrived and only supposed to be enhanced with at guns and vehicles. Thats not what Ostheer was designed to be.


The idea of unit timing is completely foreign concept to you, isn't it?

Unit can be perfectly fine stat-wise and still be obsolete, because of its timing.

You know....
Like T2 PGs or obersoldaten or even SU-76 and M5.
20 Jun 2020, 14:47 PM
#24
avatar of Senseo1990

Posts: 317

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2020, 14:45 PMKatitof


The idea of unit timing is completely foreign concept to you, isn't it?

Unit can be perfectly fine stat-wise and still be obsolete, because of its timing.

You know....
Like T2 PGs or obersoldaten or even SU-76 and M5.


Or it becomes obselete not because of its timing, but because you can do just fine without it, as was apparently the case with Pgrens.
20 Jun 2020, 14:52 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17316 | Subs: 8



Or it becomes obselete not because of its timing, but because you can do just fine without it, as was apparently the case with Pgrens.

Go on, explain then how it happened that US started using HMGs the moment they were allowed to build them earlier instead of going full rifle build?

Its the same concept.
Take aaaall the time you need to let that sink in.
20 Jun 2020, 14:59 PM
#26
avatar of Senseo1990

Posts: 317

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2020, 14:52 PMKatitof

Go on, explain then how it happened that US started using HMGs the moment they were allowed to build them earlier instead of going full rifle build?

Its the same concept.
Take aaaall the time you need to let that sink in.


USF is designed not only to survive but even to thrive without HMGs, hence it really isnt the same concept.
20 Jun 2020, 15:05 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11649 | Subs: 1

If people spam Grenadiers and therefore dont need Pgrens anymore once they arrive, then one >might< assume that the problem is related to tier 1 and not Pgrens themselves. But why balance tier 1 in balance patches when you can just redesign a faction (once again)? <444>_<444>^_^

the problem had less do to do with Ostheer T1 units and more power level of allied units at the time Pg arrived.
20 Jun 2020, 15:29 PM
#28
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17316 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2020, 15:05 PMVipper

the problem had less do to do with Ostheer T1 units and more power level of allied units at the time Pg arrived.


The changes for Panzergrenadiers hardly had anything to do with the opposition they faced, clearly demonstrated by the fact that their new timing is only 1-2 minutes faster than what it used to be which barely makes a difference in enemy veterancy or weapon upgrades , and much more with the fact that they were incredibly hard to fit into builds when they were available at a time where most players would rather / had to invest in light vehicles or an ATG.
20 Jun 2020, 15:33 PM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11649 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2020, 15:29 PMKatitof



Since you like what the member of moderation have to say here is something from the patch notes:

"Panzer Grenadiers

Panzer Grenadiers are a strong unit but their timing means other factions already have veterancy on their infantry making it difficult for PGs to scale in veterancy vs their opponents.
"

And Pgs do not arrive 1-2 earlier than they did because for long they did not arrive at all.
20 Jun 2020, 16:05 PM
#30
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3013 | Subs: 7

Panzergrenadiers are in a difficult position in the live game. We want to experiment with earlier deployment, before considering raw performance changes. Being able to fit Panzergrenadiers more easily into a build, and acquire veterancy sooner should result in more build diversity for Wehrmacht

is from the original preview patch notes.


Not sure which increased power level of Allied infantry you are referring to anyway. There were hardly any changes to Allied early game infantry before PGrens got changed.
20 Jun 2020, 17:55 PM
#38
avatar of Procura

Posts: 3

I can't speak for OKW since I never really used Obers without LMGs anyway, but for USF, before the changes, unless you went airbone, you basically had to choose between HMGs or AT guns. Having to backtech 50 fuel just to unlock HMGs or 60 fuel just to unlock AT Guns was usually too expensive unless you were way ahead of your opponent.

By splitting the tech in two, you can go for both officers and get basic weapon teams without being forced to go airbone and airdrop them.

I love this change, because before it, I basically went airbone every game since I need my weapon teams.
20 Jun 2020, 18:37 PM
#39
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Jun 2020, 17:55 PMProcura
I can't speak for OKW since I never really used Obers without LMGs anyway, but for USF, before the changes, unless you went airbone, you basically had to choose between HMGs or AT guns. Having to backtech 50 fuel just to unlock HMGs or 60 fuel just to unlock AT Guns was usually too expensive unless you were way ahead of your opponent.

By splitting the tech in two, you can go for both officers and get basic weapon teams without being forced to go airbone and airdrop them.

I love this change, because before it, I basically went airbone every game since I need my weapon teams.

A sensible reply - thanks!
20 Jun 2020, 19:28 PM
#40
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8089 | Subs: 2

OKW:
I would say this was the least effective of the other 3 implementations.

Obers arrive too late to be effective, at a point on which OKW is more looking towards getting a tank than adding another infantry units to their army.
The good thing about the split upgrade on the Flak HQ, is that it opens up more possibilities to adjust timings for doctrinal units if that ever get's done.
For ex, at some point it was discussed whether the JPIV should be behind the first part of the Flak HQ or not. Same with units like the Hetzer or Ostwind.

USF:
I think that 3 Rifles were a bit too few to hold on till the LT/Cpt arrive on the field and going 4 Rifles was too much, if you plan to get both MGs and AT guns as you will be clog down with 4 Rifles + 2 Officers.
The issue was exacerbated when we had Armor company meta. People were just skipping on getting the major and play with both officers and just clutching on no tech armor call ins.


The new timing means that you can add more organically an 50cal or add both officers while going with just 3 Rifles. Back teching to either tier for an MG or an AT gun is not prohibitively costly as well.

There was also a swap of units as well, same with the bar/zook upgrade on the officers. Each tier has enough AT to deal with light vehicles.


OH:
PGs had always been the link between making viable T1 skips but they always arrived too late cause you had to spend first on T2 and wait for it to be built (which also require your Pio back in base).
Unless you play with a sniper (sacrificing map control) you are not trading well 1on1 against Rifles or IS. You need PG/222/FHT to creep back into the game in a standard Gren opening.

Getting PG before T2 means that you can skip on building another Pio/Gren and mix it up.

Though with the latest nerfs to heavies, OH is not entirely dependent on Tiger to face on others factions heavies late game which opened up a wide array of commanders which focus in infantry and early game.

People nowadays are using Osstruppen, AG or just going Pio + MG42 (on 1v1 mostly) for a map control approach and aggressive style with T2 units. On the other hand, some just go grens heavy with G43 or the 5 man squad upgrade.

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