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russian armor

60 range TD

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6 Apr 2020, 10:02 AM
#41
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65

Yes.
Change
your
gameplay tactics.
Get good my friend.

Any nerf to 60 TD will allow Axis late game tanks to run riot.


Axis tank should run riot at the late game,This was game design in the first place and also historicaly accurate.
Allies should use snares,traps and airpower to cripple Axis armor not counter with High dps 60 range TD's.

In 1vs1 everything's relatively balanced but in the team games Allies are more rewarding at all stages in the game and Axis esp Ostheer is RNG nighrmare...
6 Apr 2020, 10:05 AM
#42
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Axis tank should run riot at the late game,This was game design in the first place and also historicaly accurate.


"late game" historically the only running axis tanks were doing was towards Berlin with the allies on their heels. Don't bother with "historical accuracy" to try and justify making a faction that got spit roasted OP eh...
6 Apr 2020, 10:16 AM
#43
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Axis tank should run riot at the late game,This was game design in the first place and also historicaly accurate.
Allies should use snares,traps and airpower to cripple Axis armor not counter with High dps 60 range TD's.

Historically, you wouldn't even have actual tanks, you'd have to cope with StuGs alone on the front, while all other working tanks are firmly sitting on defensive line.

Historically, allies wouldn't even need TDs, because planes would take out all relevant armor formations.

Historically of original game design, axis infantry should not have a chance in early game to keep that late game tanks strong.

The game is not historical, the game is balanced.

In 1vs1 everything's relatively balanced but in the team games Allies are more rewarding at all stages in the game and Axis esp Ostheer is RNG nighrmare...

And yet, changes to ost need to be made extremely precisely, because it would overpower them beyond belief in team games according to balance team...
You have elephants and SCAS, learn to use them.
6 Apr 2020, 10:22 AM
#44
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1


The only things that were adjusted were its price and its health, then later its vision because it had more vision than other tanks had firing range. It retains its high mobility, accuracy, HVAP and self heal crew. All relics of it being a glass cannon. Which it is no longer. It needs redesigned and it, aside from the high pen of the su85 and the crazy high vet bonus it has are the only issues with allied TDs. The Jackson entire, and the high pen of the su85 being too high.


I like how to avoid to mention the damage reduction from 240 to 160. Oh and
We are reworking the M36 Jackson tank destroyer to give it more survivability in order to allow it to face late-game threats. In exchange for the Jackson changes, USF Riflemen now lose access to smoke grenades. This change will ensure that players continue fostering a mixed-squad army well into the late-game, and will also reward players more for using USF's elite infantry.
.

Jackson were given extra sigh and then removed.

It is fun because the aim of M36 jacksons changes have always been survivability in exchange of firepower, and now you want to reduce its survivability but no words about firepower.
6 Apr 2020, 11:05 AM
#45
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65


Historically, you wouldn't even have actual tanks, you'd have to cope with StuGs alone on the front, while all other working tanks are firmly sitting on defensive line.

Historically, allies wouldn't even need TDs, because planes would take out all relevant armor formations.

Historically of original game design, axis infantry should not have a chance in early game to keep that late game tanks strong.

The game is not historical, the game is balanced.


And yet, changes to ost need to be made extremely precisely, because it would overpower them beyond belief in team games according to balance team...
You have elephants and SCAS, learn to use them.


>Funny.

The game is far more away to be balanced And stop saying its the learn to play issue. Its really just trying to win an argument with unbacked thesis.


Yes historicaly German army had best designed tanks in the world with mostly low qualty metarials because of the resource war, and as I said before Allies can use air power and snares to make that tanks absolete... Germany lost he war because of lack off resources and over extension. Stugs used because of lack of resources and time to make heavy tanks for impracticaly roll over all the time.


Game design "had" Good late game axis tanks and swarming soviet mediums with tds that was relatively balanced.Yeah I remember scout car sniper tactics etc. Had balance problems in the first place too.

Axis inf stil not a chance against allied infantry. theoretically game balance maaaybe good but practicaly lots of abuse happening. And l2p issue is about using this abusive stuff for all sides.

I said historical to just to make a vision about facts , Not for justfy any faction ...I am playing with all factions by the way. Dont use this "you are an axis fan boy" Attitute here.
and also dont derail the subject with this kind of arguments.

60 range TD's is really rewarding for allies with current useless Tiger,KT tactics...

6 Apr 2020, 11:05 AM
#46
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 10:22 AMEsxile


I like how to avoid to mention the damage reduction from 240 to 160. Oh and
.
Jackson were given extra sigh and then removed.

That is incorrect damage was 200 not 240 and the increase in ROF and penetration more than makes up for it.
jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 10:22 AMEsxile

It is fun because the aim of M36 jacksons changes have always been survivability in exchange of firepower, and now you want to reduce its survivability but no words about firepower.

That is incorrect the intend was to make it more reliably in delivering damage to heavily armored target:
"M36 Jackson
The M36 is having its damage modified to be more reliable against tanks, including heavies, but less potent in terms of burst damage against lower health vehicles."

The m36 got buff both in HP and damage output.
6 Apr 2020, 11:19 AM
#47
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8


60 range TD's is really rewarding for allies with current useless Tiger,KT tactics...


Why are you insisting on slow heavy vehicles so much then if you realize their hardcounters are working well then?

60 range TDs are strong, because every single axis player is tunnelvisioning straight into slow heavies. Try to invest in more mobile and diverse force, OKW has especially easy time here, because JP4 is a hardcounter for allied TDs.
6 Apr 2020, 11:32 AM
#48
avatar of Sgt.BigHead

Posts: 65


Why are you insisting on slow heavy vehicles so much then if you realize their hardcounters are working well then?

60 range TDs are strong, because every single axis player is tunnelvisioning straight into slow heavies. Try to invest in more mobile and diverse force, OKW has especially easy time here, because JP4 is a hardcounter for allied TDs.


If I play with axis always use panther for tank hunting,I dont like to use heavies in any faction personally jp is quite good but dmg or penetration I really dont know seems low with low sight.
when its get vet It can gıve sum punch but like I said in practical situation Tds more rewarding againts jp because of the ez usage(fast move ,vision or other things exclusive for allied factions). If u re not using Panzerfusiliers u can get easly raped by line of sight.

As I said before maaaybe theoretically TD and axis armor balanced in some point but in practical situations
its not.So many abuse in allies faction. Yes if u good at any faction u can ignore with nice team play but with this kind of rondom matchmaking its gets annoying so fast. Maybe some players like this way...
6 Apr 2020, 11:57 AM
#49
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 11:05 AMVipper

That is incorrect damage was 200 not 240 and the increase in ROF and penetration more than makes up for it.

That is incorrect the intend was to make it more reliably in delivering damage to heavily armored target:
"M36 Jackson
The M36 is having its damage modified to be more reliable against tanks, including heavies, but less potent in terms of burst damage against lower health vehicles."

The m36 got buff both in HP and damage output.


Aaah the selective reader, always prone to highlight the half of changes that serve his story

The Jackson had issues dealing damage consistently due to its lower penetration. Our team has chosen to reduce the damage dealt by the M36 while also increasing the penetration; two changes we feel will offset each other in an ideal way. This will allow for the Jackson to retain its current role while also being a more consistent tank destroyer. This is an indirect buff to Wehrmacht Tier 3, in which every tank was hard countered by the Jackson in its current form.
Damage reduced from 240 to 200
Penetration increased from 160 / 180 / 200 to 200 / 220 /240
AP rounds penetration increased from 220 / 250 / 280 to 240 / 270 / 300


Oh you mentioned the less potent in terms of burst damage vs medium, here it is. 240 to 200 in exchange of better penetration.



6 Apr 2020, 12:06 PM
#50
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 11:05 AMVipper

"M36 Jackson
The M36 is having its damage modified to be more reliable against tanks, including heavies, but less potent in terms of burst damage against lower health vehicles."

The m36 got buff both in HP and damage output.

That's wrong!
jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 11:05 AMVipper

"M36 Jackson
The M36 is having its damage modified to be more reliable against tanks, including heavies, but less potent in terms of burst damage against lower health vehicles."

The m36 got nerf in both burst damage output and anti light capabilities.
Its a nerf.
6 Apr 2020, 12:11 PM
#51
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 10:22 AMEsxile


I like how to avoid to mention the damage reduction from 240 to 160. Oh and
.

Jackson were given extra sigh and then removed.

It is fun because the aim of M36 jacksons changes have always been survivability in exchange of firepower, and now you want to reduce its survivability but no words about firepower.


jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 11:57 AMEsxile


Aaah the selective reader, always prone to highlight the half of changes that serve his story



Oh you mentioned the less potent in terms of burst damage vs medium, here it is. 240 to 200 in exchange of better penetration.





To support your statement, this is correct, as indicated by the numerous patch notes that were published at the time. Other people are wrong, as usual, and refuse to accept that they're wrong. However, the Jackson also received further modifications further buffs and nerfs down the line from that patch onwards. :]

For once, I'm glad the Jackson does something. At the start of WFA it was totally useless once the KT was out. I should find that video of the KT rolling over Jackson after Jackson after Jackson again..
6 Apr 2020, 12:17 PM
#52
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 11:57 AMEsxile


Aaah the selective reader, always prone to highlight the half of changes that serve his story

Can pls cut the crap? And your conspiracy theories I have provided with all the information that come with patch changes and it has proven your claim to be false.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 11:57 AMEsxile

Oh you mentioned the less potent in terms of burst damage vs medium, here it is. 240 to 200 in exchange of better penetration.

Now read the patch notes:

" M36 Jackson
The M36 is having its damage modified to be more reliable against tanks, including heavies, but less potent in terms of burst damage against lower health vehicles.

Cost from 360/125 to 400/140
Damage from 200 to 160
Reload from 5.2/5.8 to 4.375/4.975; does not affect HVAP
HVAP damage decreased from 240 to 200
HVAP penetration from 300/250/220 to 300/280/250
Penetration from 240/220/200 to 260/240/220
Health from 480 to 640
Veterancy 3 reload bonus from 30% to 15% "

The HVAP did 240 not the auto fire.

As for mediums with 200 damage the unit simply ovekilled it needed 4 shots (as it now also does) that took longer to fire.

The change traded damage that lead to ovekill vs mediums for ROF and Penetration. Overall the M36 became deadlier.

Your claim that: "changes have always been survivability in exchange of firepower," is simply false.
6 Apr 2020, 12:22 PM
#53
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1


That's wrong!

The m36 got nerf in both burst damage output and anti light capabilities.
Its a nerf.

You are simply wrong.

The time to kill a medium was reduced the M36 was not nerfed vs mediums.

If you are using M36 to kill light vehicles you probably doing something wrong.
6 Apr 2020, 12:27 PM
#54
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 12:22 PMVipper

You are simply wrong.

The time to kill a medium was reduced the M36 was not nerfed vs mediums.

If you are using M36 to kill light vehicles you probably doing something wrong.

You are simply wrong.

I didn't mention time to kill, but burst, which also affected panthers.

If you are using mediums to kill top tier tank destroyers, you probably are doing something wrong.
6 Apr 2020, 12:38 PM
#57
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 12:17 PMVipper

Can pls cut the crap? And your conspiracy theories I have provided with all the information that come with patch changes and it has proven your claim to be false.


Now read the patch notes:

" M36 Jackson
The M36 is having its damage modified to be more reliable against tanks, including heavies, but less potent in terms of burst damage against lower health vehicles.

Cost from 360/125 to 400/140
Damage from 200 to 160
Reload from 5.2/5.8 to 4.375/4.975; does not affect HVAP
HVAP damage decreased from 240 to 200
HVAP penetration from 300/250/220 to 300/280/250
Penetration from 240/220/200 to 260/240/220
Health from 480 to 640
Veterancy 3 reload bonus from 30% to 15% "

The HVAP did 240 not the auto fire.

As for mediums with 200 damage the unit simply ovekilled it needed 4 shots (as it now also does) that took longer to fire.

The change traded damage that lead to ovekill vs mediums for ROF and Penetration. Overall the M36 became deadlier.

Your claim that: "changes have always been survivability in exchange of firepower," is simply false.


That's the second change, Jackson has been overall adjusted 2 times.
1st time to make it less OP vs mediums and more relevant vs heavies (less firepower for more penetration)
2nd time to give it more survivability and reload reduction in exchange of firepower and price increase

So whatever you aim to reverse, health, penetration or reload should come with or a reduction of price to its previous state or increase firepower to its previous state.
6 Apr 2020, 12:48 PM
#58
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 12:38 PMEsxile


That's the second change, Jackson has been overall adjusted 2 times.

M36 has been adjusted many times not just 2.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 12:38 PMEsxile

1st time to make it less OP vs mediums and more relevant vs heavies (less firepower for more penetration)
2nd time to give it more survivability and reload reduction in exchange of firepower and price increase

No that is incorrect I just provided you with patch notes, pls read them before posting.

The changes in HP damage and ROF where done together.

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 12:38 PMEsxile

So whatever you aim to reverse, health, penetration or reload should come with or a reduction of price to its previous state or increase firepower to its previous state.

Not really the unit should be balanced according to current state of the game not to what it used to be since too many things have changed.
6 Apr 2020, 12:53 PM
#59
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 12:48 PMVipper


Not really the unit should be balanced according to current state of the game not to what it used to be since too many things have changed.


Then it is already balanced. end of discussion :clap:
6 Apr 2020, 12:56 PM
#60
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 12:53 PMEsxile


Then it is already balanced. end of discussion :clap:

Nope, M36 is unhealthy and even the MOD team recognizes that.

Happy to see that you have acknowledged that your claim was wrong.
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