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Ostheer's Pioneer [combat-design change]

29 Mar 2020, 19:30 PM
#1
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

At the moment Ostheer's Pios are in a very decent combat situation, because of their bad middle and long-range weapon stats. Their order is to improve close-combat early game, to support Ostheer's weak spots at that state of game, for that role they are very well balanced. BUT the combat-upgrade with flame-thrower outplays the weapon-profile of this unit, because its optimal range doesn't fit with their MP40 screwed design. While other units doesn't have that problem with their upgrades.

My idea is to adjust the unit with an upgrade specialization, to become an urban battle specialist with an assault-pack. While solving the problem of too many different weapon profiles with very different stats. Also we get an unique unit, if not upgraded.

1. Change current MP40 with Lugar Pistols

Ostheer's Pios MP40 DPS:

0: 7,071083661 10: 5,234289456 20: 1,352598909 30: 0,379734542

Luger_Pistol DPS:

0: 7,441587786 10: 2,347192911 20: 0,798279123 30: 0,446320218


2. Flame-thrower upgrade changes Luger into MP40 with assault-grens stats. Change them into a new unit. (even if flamer gets destroyed they stay an unique unit, mine-sweeper gets locked.)

Luger_Pistol DPS:

0: 7,441587786 10: 2,347192911 20: 0,798279123 30: 0,446320218

Assault_grenadiers MO40 DPS:

0: 10,58817582 10: 10,58817582 20: 2,302975034 30: 0,334035088



a. Their actual design stays nearly untouched, because their DPS in close-combat doesn't get changed much.

b. Flame-thrower upgrade now really improves the unit, making it a combat unit.


.......

Nerfs if upgraded:

- 20% less repair speed with combat-upgrade.

- maybe locking some buildings: e.g. disable constructions of base-buildings and outposts etc.


......

Beside: Maybe reduce max. range of Lugar Pistols, so the unit can be used better as observator. So they don't shoot at target over 25-30 range.










With that stats they would perform like (little bit better) than combat engineers on max. range of flamethrower.

Assault_grenadiers MO40 DPS:

0: 10,58817582 10: 10,58817582 20: 2,302975034 30: 0,334035088


CE Rifle DPS:

0: 3,611910653 10: 2,597436246 20: 1,978127476 30: 1,346060654[/size]


Edit:

See it as cosmetic with some benefits in unit design.

I would also like to see, if Ostheer's weapon-crews get same K98 as OKW weapon-crews.


29 Mar 2020, 19:38 PM
#2
avatar of BlueKnight

Posts: 265

Leave pioneers alone!
29 Mar 2020, 19:39 PM
#3
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2596

At the moment Ostheer's Pios are in a very decent combat situation, because of their bad middle and long-range weapon stats. Their order is to improve close-combat early game, to support Ostheer's weak spots at that state of game, for that role they are very well balanced. BUT the combat-upgrade with flame-thrower outplays the weapon-profile of this unit, because its optimal range doesn't fit with their MP40 screwed design. While other units doesn't have that problem with their upgrades.


Nonexistent problem, no need for a change.
29 Mar 2020, 19:41 PM
#4
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

Leave pioneers alone!


I understand what, because I also think they are in a very good balance situation, but only if they don't get the flamer.

That would be a way to keep their actual performence, while give an improved upgraded WITHOUT destroy actual weapons designs.


Lugar isn't used that much, Pios are no battle-unit. The blue-print would fit on them.
29 Mar 2020, 19:42 PM
#5
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162



Nonexistent problem, no need for a change.


They are the worst unit to upgrade with a Flamer. For me that is a problem, the problem exists.


But yes, it would be more or less cosmetic, making game more logical, while not destroy actual design and balancing that much.


Edit: And sure, the stats has to be optimiced. But at the state the profiles seems to fit good.
29 Mar 2020, 19:43 PM
#6
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15125 | Subs: 7



They are the worst unit to upgrade with a Flamer. For me that is a problem, the problem exists.

So don't.
Keep them as sweepers.
Its not like ost doesn't have flamethrowing alternative.

Don't fix what isn't broken.
29 Mar 2020, 19:45 PM
#7
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 19:43 PMKatitof

So don't.
Keep them as sweepers.
Its not like ost doesn't have flamethrowing alternative.

Don't fix what isn't broken.


Wouldn't that fit for nearly all changes made the last years? Why buffing Cons, they have Penals? xD

So, thats the logic of flamer? Waisting an unit, to hope the flamer gets dropped to pic it with PnzGrens or AssaultGrens?
29 Mar 2020, 19:50 PM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15125 | Subs: 7



Wouldn't that fit for nearly all changes made the last years? Why buffing Cons, they have Penals? xD

So, thats the logic of flamer? Waisting an unit, to hope the flamer gets dropped to pic it with PnzGrens or AssaultGrens?

Because there is a difference between personal choice and balance issue.
I don't see latter here.
29 Mar 2020, 19:53 PM
#9
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 19:50 PMKatitof

Because there is a difference between personal choice and balance issue.
I don't see latter here.


a. fixing unlogical weapon-profiles (there is no other weapon ingame with so a large DPS span)


b. fixing unlogical upgrade.


And sure, there is a personal choice. Like, why brits have a He111 in their bombing run? Firefly using hit-marker of Jagdtiger? etc.

Games doesn't looks logical and could be better, by optics.



Edit:

I try to find solutions to fix more things with one step. One thing the game would benefit form.
29 Mar 2020, 21:10 PM
#10
avatar of A Furry Wehraboo

Posts: 56

I kind of like this idea. At least part of it
29 Mar 2020, 21:32 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8202 | Subs: 1

Imo engineer should have to routes.

Repair/build oriented with sweepers upgrades taking up all slot and combat oriented.

If you leaves pioneer with smgs after upgrade one should at least try to change the formation so that at least the flamer is in the rear and smgs fire at closer range.
29 Mar 2020, 21:57 PM
#12
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 21:32 PMVipper
Imo engineer should have to routes.

Repair/build oriented with sweepers upgrades taking up all slot and combat oriented.

If you leaves pioneer with smgs after upgrade one should at least try to change the formation so that at least the flamer is in the rear and smgs fire at closer range.


They shouldn't overperform for their price. The flamer is a very harsh weapon in use, because under the 5m range mark it will get problems to hit units because of movement (one main-problem with the actual Pios, their weapons become useful at ~10 range. Over 15 they come useless, the main-range of flamers). With Assault-Grens guns they would perform at 20m range like combat engineers. Closer they would be able to hold ground, because of good DPS, while only beeing 3 men. (so the bleed is like Ostheer should be). Something Ostheer's units suck at, open a meta beside of Panzergrens, while beeing balanced.

Edit:

We could make same with a modifier, but I would simply like to see Luger Pistol. ^^ lets make CoH nice again.

29 Mar 2020, 23:52 PM
#13
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 592

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Mar 2020, 19:50 PMKatitof

Because there is a difference between personal choice and balance issue.
I don't see latter here.


Well then all Soviet players should have made the personal choice to go t1 kappa

I do, however, agree that this change is not necessary.
30 Mar 2020, 00:52 AM
#14
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7068 | Subs: 1

TL;DR: OP wants to see Lugers.
30 Mar 2020, 01:04 AM
#15
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 757

Could just give them a mild accuracy increase at mid range and lower their vet requirements.

I have said before that Pionier and Combat Engineer veterancy requirements should be lowered to what USF Rear Echelons currently have.

Current vet requirements
400/800/1600

Proposed vet requirements
320/640/1280
30 Mar 2020, 01:32 AM
#16
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 184

Pios are fine. Balance issues are either with the other armies or grens.
30 Mar 2020, 05:21 AM
#17
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2543 | Subs: 1

Royal Engies are in the same situation with their docrinal flamers. Personally I don't think it is a big deal.
30 Mar 2020, 10:54 AM
#18
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1162

Royal Engies are in the same situation with their docrinal flamers. Personally I don't think it is a big deal.


Yes and no, because they have the cover-bonus-system [cooldown multiplier 0.83 (1/1.2) and reload multiplier 0.71 (1/1.4)] AND get massive fire-bonus at vet1 -70% cooldown in the cover +50% reload speed in cover AND vet3 -33% received accuracy. Don't forget the option to upgrade Bren and 5th men-upgrade.

[Edit: the cover-system is from 2016, I am not sure about the current bonus-system. I am sorry, I will check it now.]

So, more or less they arn't in same situation, because instead of Ostheer's Pio, Royal Engineers can stay in action way longer, with Vet3 min. 33% longer. With 5th men ~ 53% longer.

......


And here is my point.

a. make them looking more unique with Luger, so they can stay at the current DPS-balance (Luger instead of bad version of MP40)
b. boost their upgrade while give a logic indicator for the buff-situation (Luger -> MP40)



30 Mar 2020, 14:17 PM
#19
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