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Tiger Ace Explained

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13 Nov 2013, 21:16 PM
#101
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 20:57 PMhubewa
The essence of the Tiger Ace

If you see a tiger ace, get snipers and AT guns/SU-85s immediately.

Snipers can not only spot, they also kill infantry, so if you kill all of his pioneers, he'll find that he can't repair his tiger ace, and it will be doomed.

Also, the SU-85 does outrange the tiger so retreating your SU-85 all the time tends to work.

The essence of the tiger ace is - if you don't win immediately, you lose the whole game. Snipers will end up bleeding you out on MP if you don't win in, say, 5 minutes.



The tiger ace is not alone, the tiger ace is free so for every SU85 you have on the field, there is a P4 for the Germans. Just "get snipers and AT guns/SU-85s" does not work, just to get one of each is 1000mp and 115 feul, which takes 5 minutes to get, more if you suffer losses and need to reinforce. It takes the German army a minute to waltz across a 1v1 map, kill your army and than proceed to kill your base.


The only way to kill the tiger ace is when you are a vastly superior player and have managed to cripple the German player before he can call in the tiger ace. There are no timings to exploit, no resource advantage to abuse. Either you already have 4 tanks and he has none, or you lose.

The essence of the tiger ace is that it has a broken design. You can't have a balanced game where one player needs to destroy the other player before 7CP or lose because of a free call-in. Other heavy tanks are balanced by the fact that you need to save up a lot of resources before you can call them in, which gives an equally skilled opponent something to exploit. The tiger ace does not.

13 Nov 2013, 21:19 PM
#102
avatar of SmokazCOH

Posts: 177

The tiger ace breaks 1v1. If a player wants to call in a heavy tank like a IS-2, Tiger, Elephant or ISU-152, he will need to save up resources. This means that his opponent can outnumber him with tanks before the heavy tank hits the field. In an even match, this will result in the player saving for the heavy tank getting pushed back a little into a defensive position. Depending on how well the opponent uses his armored advantage prior to the arrival of the heavy tank, he can then either deal with it or take heavy losses from the heavy tank.

The tiger ace is different. A game can be perfectly even, with both players having roughly the same infantry and tank count, and then suddenly a free (super) heavy tank hits the field for one player. The only way to deal with this tank is by having superior numbers, but that does not apply here because there is no magical way for Soviets (bar 1 p2w soviet commander) to outnumber the Germans in an even match.


There's also the scenario where a lucky mine or demo or ability sinks the tiger
Rammed in the butt and loses main gun
Lost on a bridge
Gets critical engine damage

And then game was lost on that 1 click on the ace

Not only for 1 player
but for all of them
13 Nov 2013, 21:28 PM
#103
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 20:57 PMhubewa
The essence of the Tiger Ace

If you see a tiger ace, get snipers and AT guns/SU-85s immediately.

Snipers can not only spot, they also kill infantry, so if you kill all of his pioneers, he'll find that he can't repair his tiger ace, and it will be doomed.

Also, the SU-85 does outrange the tiger so retreating your SU-85 all the time tends to work.

The essence of the tiger ace is - if you don't win immediately, you lose the whole game. Snipers will end up bleeding you out on MP if you don't win in, say, 5 minutes.


last round my tiger ace oneshotted 3 zis and finished 2 su85 with an engine damage. And in another game I have lost 4 SU85 to an tiger ace...
13 Nov 2013, 21:30 PM
#104
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

I dislike the idea of having a unit that is all or none. Creates a situation of inevitability for players who lose, and feels totally lucky when you win.

Also this unit encourages base rushing, and allows players to convert vp game into annihilation.
13 Nov 2013, 21:32 PM
#105
avatar of SmokazCOH

Posts: 177

Base Rushing was way too uncommon in COH 1 if you ask me.
You had some gimmick stuff with halftracks and demos in base of a VP camper, or decrewing the flakvierlings of PE. M8 on kriegsbarracks.
So really more base pushing just expands on coh 1
13 Nov 2013, 21:44 PM
#106
avatar of Marcus2389
Developer Relic Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 4559 | Subs: 2

Guys, expressing your opinion is VITAL to keep the game alive and make it better. But there are many ways to express it and directly insulting Relic members is not mature nor a good way to point out what's wrong. Try to write more constructive posts suggesting where they are doing it wrong and how they can fix these units and even your own opinion on the whole model of DLC commanders if you want, but do it in a civil way. We are all mature people here and we give you the same respect we pretend from you ;)

Keep going with the discussion, some posts had to be invisibled for what I stated above. :)
13 Nov 2013, 21:48 PM
#107
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

The only way to beat this commander is to use the paid soviet industry commander which is even more broken (4 minute T70 in 1v1).
13 Nov 2013, 21:55 PM
#108
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1



There's also the scenario where a lucky mine or demo or ability sinks the tiger
Rammed in the butt and loses main gun
Lost on a bridge
Gets critical engine damage

And then game was lost on that 1 click on the ace

Not only for 1 player
but for all of them


There is no all of them in 1v1, just one player vs another player.

Bridge kills and ice should be ignored when discussing balance issues. Half the maps don't even have ice and the 1v1 pool has 1 map with a bridge.

Getting a rear ram on the tiger ace can disable it sure, it requires a large bit of luck an tactical skill, but it can happen. You are however still faced with the rest of the German army and you are now 1 tank short. Remember this is not like a normal tiger, who have less supporting units because it's expensive. This tiger ace is free so for nearly every T34 on the field there is a PIV or a stugIII aswell.

A heavy damage crit has about a 2% chance of happening with an AT nade if you factor in penetration. Mines have a bit more chance but require your opponent to make the noobish mistake of not getting mine sweepers when they call in the tiger ace. And still, even if you get so lucky, it still only buys you a few minutes, maybe enough for 1 other tank; not enough to counter the tiger ace and the army behind it.
13 Nov 2013, 21:58 PM
#109
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 928




The tiger ace is not alone, the tiger ace is free so for every SU85 you have on the field, there is a P4 for the Germans. Just "get snipers and AT guns/SU-85s" does not work, just to get one of each is 1000mp and 115 feul, which takes 5 minutes to get, more if you suffer losses and need to reinforce. It takes the German army a minute to waltz across a 1v1 map, kill your army and than proceed to kill your base.


The only way to kill the tiger ace is when you are a vastly superior player and have managed to cripple the German player before he can call in the tiger ace. There are no timings to exploit, no resource advantage to abuse. Either you already have 4 tanks and he has none, or you lose.

The essence of the tiger ace is that it has a broken design. You can't have a balanced game where one player needs to destroy the other player before 7CP or lose because of a free call-in. Other heavy tanks are balanced by the fact that you need to save up a lot of resources before you can call them in, which gives an equally skilled opponent something to exploit. The tiger ace does not.



That's kinda true. I think the guy who I was playing against at the time wasn't that great. That said, you should have AT options and snipers anyway before he gets a tiger. Also, if he's vetting infantry, then SU-76 is sooooo good against it.

In the end, when I figured out how to kill it, it more or less cost me my whole army (this was on Minsk pocket btw). But I still stand by the fact that you still have to win within 5 minutes with the Tiger Ace.

Or you lose due to being bled out. The Tiger Ace simply can't prop up everything, esp on some of the big maps in the 1v1 arena (it might be able to work better in Langres or Semois though).

EDIT: I forgot to add that, before I rebuilt another SU-85 against all of my armour which got killed, I damaged his engine and he was never able to get the engine back up, esp when I killed all of his pios. With a damaged engine, the SU-85 definitely has the advantage over range.
13 Nov 2013, 21:59 PM
#110
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Nov 2013, 21:48 PMlink0
The only way to beat this commander is to use the paid soviet industry commander which is even more broken (4 minute T70 in 1v1).


There are 2 ways actually:

1) Play against a german player 3000-5000 ranks below you. You can kill the tiger ace if you have 80 army supply and he only has 10 before he calls in the tiger ace.
2) Drop 4 bucks to buy the p2w OP soviet industry commander.
13 Nov 2013, 22:58 PM
#111
avatar of SgtBulldog

Posts: 688

I suppose this does not come as a surprise to anyone, but....in team games think about what happens if more than one player goes Tiger Ace?

Germans allready sweep the floor with tanks if they manage to hold on to end game. It's hard enough to stem the Steel Train allready. Throw in two Tiger Ace and it's absolutely non sensical.

The problem IMO is not so much that it is hard to counter. I trust that counters have been tested and found viable. What bugs me is more that it transforms the gameplay into something completely different.

From being a squad based game based on combined forces meeting eachother in an intriguing rock-paper-scissors kind of game, it turns into a 'Sink the Bismarck' kind of a game. Everything is about destroying ONE particular unit.



Now, counters: I read that ram is possible? I just tried and as well ram as AT nades failed completely from behind and sides. Plus it is almost impossible to get within nading range.

Is this unit like every other tank wrt chance of ram and AT nades failing? Or does it somehow have a better chance of repelling those two counters?
13 Nov 2013, 23:17 PM
#112
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

How do you check the kill count for the units in coh2?
13 Nov 2013, 23:24 PM
#113
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1


Now, counters: I read that ram is possible? I just tried and as well ram as AT nades failed completely from behind and sides. Plus it is almost impossible to get within nading range.

Is this unit like every other tank wrt chance of ram and AT nades failing? Or does it somehow have a better chance of repelling those two counters?


this tiger is just as susceptible to ram and nades as a normal tiger. ram has over a 50% chance to work from the front. i used it on 2 tiger aces last night and penetrated 2 out of 3 times. tigers have the highest rear armor in the game though, so i find ramming the rear isnt worth it. it greatly increases the chance of your t34 dying or getting engine damage without enough increased chance to penetrate to make it worthwhile.
14 Nov 2013, 00:07 AM
#114
avatar of SmokazCOH

Posts: 177

Ram from behind, 100% success for me so far. Yes yes yes its hard to do and german is a noob and all those responses, buuuut it's a option for completely ruining his entire choice.
14 Nov 2013, 04:14 AM
#115
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

Hey guys, what about tank traps?
14 Nov 2013, 05:15 AM
#116
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
How do you check the kill count for the units in coh2?


By hovering over the small yellow number in the bottom left of the unit portait.
14 Nov 2013, 05:35 AM
#117
avatar of The Dave

Posts: 396

Con!,

If you played COH you would know that before the game was "stale", as you understand it, it was almost unplayable because Relic refused for the longest time to do anything about Kangaroos being into your base by 7 minutes and then crushing your troops over and over again. Before that, trenches and gliders crushed all your people. The PE infantry spam and ACs were ridiculous. ToV represents this shift where relic nose dived from legendary to comically insane.

VCoH and CoH+TOV were done by separate teams if I remember correctly. The TOV expansion caused ridiculous problems to the game essentially ruining a perfect rts and running off over 3/4s of the initial community.

Guess who is in charge of this game? The track record simply isn't there. Nothing that they have said or done in this game thus far has been anything to the contrary of a big fucking letdown and this is about to make it even worse.

Mark my words.
14 Nov 2013, 13:07 PM
#118
avatar of SgtBulldog

Posts: 688

Hey guys, what about tank traps?


Good question.

But I assume that Panthers and everything above that have heavy crush as in COH1.

Since TTs are free, it should be that way, but alas it's no solution to the Tiger Ace then.
14 Nov 2013, 13:33 PM
#119
avatar of undostrescuatro

Posts: 525



Good question.

But I assume that Panthers and everything above that have heavy crush as in COH1.

Since TTs are free, it should be that way, but alas it's no solution to the Tiger Ace then.


panthers cant crush the tank traps. dont know about tigers but i am sure panthers cant. its a tank trap is not supposed to be crushed. withouth problems.

the defensive commander can actually be usefull

the babyface commander AKA T2 commander AKA comunity commander AKA turtle commander. floats munition like mad. i´ve had 1000 munition floating with it. that is like 30 mines! more than 100 infantry mines! etc etc
14 Nov 2013, 13:36 PM
#120
avatar of tuvok
Benefactor 115

Posts: 786

can't you just one-shot tank traps?
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