Login

russian armor

Resource Modification in CoH2

1 Jan 2016, 18:07 PM
#2
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4299 | Subs: 2

Asymmetrical balance at its greatest.
1 Jan 2016, 18:33 PM
#3
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

Imo you should include cashes and Opel Blitz since both are also manipulation of resources...

Further, more making MU cashes to then convert them to Fuel via a risky airdrop makes little senses.
If one wants FU, one should make a FU cash since they are more cost efficient the MU cashes.
1 Jan 2016, 18:36 PM
#4
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

Great work.

As always
1 Jan 2016, 19:30 PM
#5
avatar of navid_uchiha

Posts: 36

I think relic didn't design these abilities to be exactly equal , if u r going to compare then u should go all the way and compare everything like indirect fires which allies forces have much more powerfull units and so on... (sorry 4 the bad english)
1 Jan 2016, 21:25 PM
#6
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 482



This article is not in any way connected to indirect fire and has little context to that matter. Can look at an article discussing this matter, are you referring to indirect fire provided by units or by off map abilities?
1 Jan 2016, 21:33 PM
#7
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 482



Caches cannot really be considered abnormal resource modification, they are available to all but the OKW faction at this time. Opels are also not much of an issue as both of these mechanics have a very distinct counter play as you must control the territory the entire time they are present, not for a prescribed a time limit. The two abilities in the article can allow for 30-50 fuel resource changes in ~30-57 seconds, which is significant pacing change for a game that measures income in resources per minute.
1 Jan 2016, 21:48 PM
#8
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 388

I think relic didn't design these abilities to be exactly equal , if u r going to compare then u should go all the way and compare everything like indirect fires which allies forces have much more powerfull units and so on... (sorry 4 the bad english)


This has nothing to do with unit balance, although we could argue about it a lot. This topic is about one basic principle of every competitive RTS. Every faction has to have access to the same amount of ressources. There is no way around this principle if a RTS claims to be balanced.

The Opel Blitz was already a big problem when it granted its ressource bonus for the whole team for nearly a year until they changed it. On some maps this lead to a big difference in fuel income and a onesided heavy vehicle spam especially in 4vs4 late game. I thought we had overcome this stage of game development.

They promised to make all ressource modifications counterable with the last patch, so overhaul this or eliminate unequal ressource modificators completely.

Thanks to op for pointing this out.
1 Jan 2016, 22:19 PM
#9
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677


Caches cannot really be considered abnormal resource modification, they are available to all but the OKW faction at this time. Opels are also not much of an issue as both of these mechanics have a very distinct counter play as you must control the territory the entire time they are present, not for a prescribed a time limit. The two abilities in the article can allow for 30-50 fuel resource changes in ~30-57 seconds, which is significant pacing change for a game that measures income in resources per minute.


By that logic Supply drop zone (axis) is "normal" resource modification because it converts manpower to Fuel or Ammo the same way caches do (only faster but less in the long term) and allied supply drop is "abnormal" because it convert MU to FU and out of 5 factions it is only available to Soviets....
Cashes, Opel and Supply drop zone increase tech speed in the cost of number of units on the field, allied supply drop increases tech speed at cost of abilities...
In a 4vs4 a FU cache increases fuel income by 12 a minute and will be more as effective as a supply drop zone in 4.17 minute and better than that after that time...
1 Jan 2016, 22:25 PM
#10
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677



They promised to make all ressource modifications counterable with the last patch, so overhaul this or eliminate unequal ressource modificators completely.

Thanks to op for pointing this out.


I have to point out though, that supply drop zone is not counterable during flight but on the other hand allied supply drop is virtually not counterable on the ground. So if one wants to allow more counter while supply drop zone is in flight, one should also allow more counters when allied supply drop hits the ground...
1 Jan 2016, 23:32 PM
#12
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 482



"Both these abilities should be changed to be easily countered, provide similar resources, reduce impact on the game pacing, or like the previous mechanics, be removed entirely. The direction of the game balance taken by removing resource modifying mechanics has only made the game more enjoyable."
2 Jan 2016, 02:00 AM
#13
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 388



Yes, of course both have to be countered. In 1vs1 as Ostheer player the allied version could be more dominant (or forces you to afford an Ostwind at least), playing OKW or 3v3/4vs4 axis version has more effect. I'm not a fan of both of them. Don't like their impact on the game. As I said especially arranged teams really profit.



+1 this
3 Jan 2016, 09:10 AM
#14
avatar of Woodstock
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 192 | Subs: 1

Good and clear explanation
3 Jan 2016, 18:41 PM
#15
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

You should add and specify that allied crates are much harder to steal once dropped and that in all game modes manpower is the most crucial resource, not munitions. 200 manpower is one squad less, just like a wipe. For example in 1v1 that may mean you loose by using this ability.
3 Jan 2016, 20:17 PM
#16
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 482



The Allied drop although dropping in the allied base must traverse the entire map from the Axis base sectors which is specified, and also means once countered the allied drop will not work. The article also specified that there is a bug that makes it impossible to shoot down the Allied plane on certain maps tested making this. Big pointer here is now you can use Osttruppen with the supply drop so MP is not an extremely critical resource in that case with a Sniper + Osttruppen build.

The two main concerns are:

It was stated in a patch note that the Axis drop should be using a different flight path, and that the planes should be destructible objects, both of which currently do not seem to be happening. Relic would not have stated the change to Axis supply drop zone if they felt the drop was already easy to counter.

The allied drop also has a bug on maps where you cannot intercept the plane.

The conclusion of the article is that both abilities should have these bugs fixed and find a middle ground, which is what you asking for aswell I take it.
5 Jan 2016, 12:36 PM
#17
avatar of navid_uchiha

Posts: 36



This has nothing to do with unit balance, although we could argue about it a lot. This topic is about one basic principle of every competitive RTS. Every faction has to have access to the same amount of ressources. There is no way around this principle if a RTS claims to be balanced.

The Opel Blitz was already a big problem when it granted its ressource bonus for the whole team for nearly a year until they changed it. On some maps this lead to a big difference in fuel income and a onesided heavy vehicle spam especially in 4vs4 late game. I thought we had overcome this stage of game development.

They promised to make all ressource modifications counterable with the last patch, so overhaul this or eliminate unequal ressource modificators completely.

Thanks to op for pointing this out.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
5 Jan 2016, 15:02 PM
#18
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 881

one way to make supply drops useful against OKW is to let players drop it anywhere on the map, because less flight time = higher chance for the drop happen before the plane get shot down. Basically a high risk/reward scenario
7 Jan 2016, 18:11 PM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 9591 | Subs: 1

"The recent patch note: "German Supply Drop zone plane comes in from longest path so that you can shoot down the plane now" does not seem to be in effect, in terms of the flight path or vulnerability to the aircraft."

As explained in the bug section that statement is not part of the actual patch notes but of the preview notes, so that part of the guide should be updated.

If the changes had gone ahead as described it is highly probable, that would turn the ability useless, since opponent might miss the first plane but would know the path of the next planes and be able to shoot down all of them...

other change my also be needed

My suggestion would be to make cashes more vulnerable to indirect fire so that one can counter/destroy the cashes on the ground with actually having to sent troops to steal them.

Imo if balance changes are made to these abilities one should consider the following:
Early Warning, one has the other does not
Number of planes one has increased RNG compared to other, more time to react.
Flight path choice for player using it, one has the other does not
Map related, one is more map related than other
Cost: one has manpower=units or tech the other MU=abilities (and utility of ability is greatly from game size)
Counters: Currently one can not be countered in the air the other can not be countered on the ground.

8 Jan 2016, 02:15 AM
#20
avatar of Mistah_S

Posts: 851 | Subs: 1

Wow, I just read this and am shocked... Why would the Devs put the Allies though this? Just make it equal or remove the functionality altogether
8 Jan 2016, 12:32 PM
#21
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

Wow, I just read this and am shocked... Why would the Devs put the Allies though this? Just make it equal or remove the functionality altogether

I would not consider supply drop zone (S.D.Z) O.P. compared to Allied supply drop (A.S.D.). I consider them about equal but would accept is someone found S.D.Z. a slightly better...

If I understand correctly neither does Original post...
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest