That’s a soft counter, not a hard counter. Hard counter is Panther vs medium tanks. Hard counter is also Elephant/Jagdtiger vs heavy tanks, but it’s commander dependent.
Panther isn't supposed to kill it solo fast.
In fact, no single unit is supposed to do it.
Its a damage sponge after all, its supposed to last, especially against just a single AT source.
You're supposed to add its own shots and being a deterrent for church to NOT rush and circle PaKs.
We're talking actual game here, not 1v1, zero additional units in support scenario.
If you don't have PaKs/raks by the time you have a panther, you've lost and churchill isn't the reason why.
Alternatively, 2 StuGs will also make a short work of it.
Firstly, there is no HP buff to Panther. It was moved forwards because the buffed Allies td are killing expensive unvet panthers easily. Of course moving forward the HP, Relic for some reason further nerfed Panther armor, so it is vulnerable to med tanks and yes Churchill!
That's a definition of a buff.
And if churchills are circle strafing your panther, you've got much larger problem on hand then churchills stats.
Lastly, unless its easy8 or 34/85, every other medium tank that'll jump panther from behind will still lose because it'll just kill it before it'll be killed specifically because of that extra hp it got.
Yep, look at this game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RQaPq9wZ84&t=1877s
2 KV1 up against 2 P4 and 1 Stug.
That is even after Sov player was afk for 1 min!
Ost player dropped knowing is hopeless.
At no singular second there is a situation where there is that specific unit composition you've mentioned going up against each other.
Additionally, KV-1 doesn't even do much except just being there, its B4, cons and ATG doing all the work aka combined arms - where were grens and ost pak supporting that P4? I've only seen almost suiciding stug.
Why do you feel the strong urge to lie and provide a proof of lies in the same post? |
3 times each close range like p4 lrnght from each other, tested tiger panther and is 2
Its extremely difficult to fabricate less realistic scenario, given all of these tanks are much faster then churchill and all of them(except P4) have more then enough penetration to never close below 40 range against it.
In Panthers case, its a 100% win ratio with zero damage taken, because it got all, speed, range and penetration advantage.
That leaves P4, which is supposed to not be able to stand a chance, but always able to escape due to superior speed.
Then I feel the need to question why medium tanks are getting long range shots on your Panther's rear armour in the first place.
He attack moves with "U" hotkey instead of "A". |
Why you keep saying Churchill gun is impotent?
Go and compare it to panther, brummbar, comet, premium meds and other units within that price range and you'll know why for a 160 fuel unit the gun is bad, unless the durability is supposed to be its selling point, which it is, because, in case you have missed it, its a damage sponge tank with weak gun, its meant to take lots of punishment, not give it out, therefore it needs to be very durable for that to function.
If you think P4 is too weak, feel free to start a new thread and explain why.
This is the whole core of the problem. While the allied factions have no problems with high armour/health units, the axis ones do not have the same capabilities, because they face higher armour units while at the same time having lower pen capabilities on their TDs themselves.
Allow me to introduce you to the panther. |
There is little reason to refer to yourself as "we", it rather confusing.
Which is this "late game vehicles" you are referring to? because if you are referring to the Panther I really hope you are not suggesting that the Churchill should perform better vs a more expensive AT oriented unit.
Panther, vetted ost P4, OKW P4, JP4(if it'll ever get in range, which it won't with that op acceleration and up speed).
Also, it appears you have just found a way to deal with churchill yourself, congratulations, mission accomplished.
Can you pls inform us how many faust must hit a Churchill before it gets an engine damage?
Churchill is not weaker than other vehicles vs snare, it even remove critical at vet 3.
The sole existence of this question screams that you should not be in balance discussion, but on a strategy forum, learning the basics of using fausts on 400+ health units(it also explains why you seem to struggle so much against churchill - you just throw grenadiers and fausts at it instead of building 1 PaK and a pair of StuGs).
Also, when was the last time you've seen vet3 churchill? Its not going to get much vet with that low mobility, weak gun and massive exp requirements. |
According to many POV chiurchuills are[...] a versatile tank that supports other units instead of needing support itself.
Woah, I see you're on a roll here, but I'm gonna stop you right there.
We have well established that churchill does need plenty of support, mainly in the field of AT as its own gun is pretty impotent against late game vehicles as well as it does need some minimal infantry or at least anti infantry support to not get fausted as that means certain death for it(its not going to crawl back with that massive, overpowered, imbalanced acceleration, when its top speed drops from pathetic 4 to standstill 2). |
If you are going to quote me at least say something relevant to my point, we where talking about acceleration and not rear armor.
If your reading attention span lasted over 4 words, you'd find the relevant part.
In regards to acceleration, you've been over this already with conscript accuracy vet.
High acceleration to low top speed isn't a big deal and high acceleration doesn't make the unit mobile - speed does. Rotation helps, but its all about speed at the end.
This is why we don't consider slow units to be very mobile, regardless of how fast that top speed is achieved. |
What's ironic is that even the British have a mobile mortar team and not in both of the video games lol.
They actually do have mobile one in CoH1, its a doctrinal, but its there.
Now, if the last 5-7 years has taught me anything, its that the best way to engage with a crowd founder game is to just wait for its actual release, even if it means paying more, at least you won't be stuck in a limbo of never released game. PC, board or otherwise. |
by that logic shouldn't the panther have superb rear armor ? as it's meant to counter them ?
Panther isn't slow damage sponge with med tank pen.
Its a very mobile brawler that is advantaged against every single stock tank and most doctrinal ones.
If it was damage sponge, then yes, another part of its frontal armor would land as its rear armor and its penetration would be half of what it is and its range would be 40 instead of 50.
No you do not. You simply need the value of the unit with similar role that you use as benchmark.
Tell you what, find what unit have more acceleration and rotation than Churchill and we can continue this.
The unit of similar role is KV-1, which happens to have a high rear armor since forever and what it lacks in raw health, it makes up with bit higher mobility.
same for panther it's tier 4 after all
Does building a panther prevents you from building any brummbars until the end of the game and vice versa?
i actaully tried to compare to brumbar before as it's role is pretty similar, but kat is kat
But brummbar and churchill roles are nothing alike....
They both are stock units with high survivability compared to medium tanks, but that's all the similarities between the two.
Churchill is a damage sponge and cover(smoke) for infantry, its a spearhead unit able to support infantry push while not being cracked up by AT instantly like regular meds.
Brummbar on the other hand is a very reliable infantry nuker, if 1st shot will not wipe squad, that squad is going to have 10% or less health. Churchill can't do that, unless you blob hard. |
we have the general rear armor for heavy tank, 180 is much higher than that, so is the kv 1 165
just bring them to 140-150, which is still higher than other heavy tank but not to the point of negating the advantage of hitting the rear
P4s are meant to have a very hard time in general against them, Pumas rarely bounce their rear armor point blank, StuG/JP4 obviously won't be flanking anything and P5 and above doesn't have to.
So the only unit that would benefit from it is a P4, which both churchill and KV-1 are meant to hardcounter as hard as it gets without penning it 100% of the time in return.
Would you be up for lowering rear armor and increasing pen in return?
If you soften damage sponge, its no longer a damage sponge.
Unless you want to slap that missing rear armor on the front, which also is an option. |
Yes it is slow compared to those with TD role, when you consider wind down, tracking and moving accuracy.
I highly advise you install latest patch.
Panthers reload was greatly buffed when it got extra health.
It used to be on the slow-ish side, atm its on med tank level.
Only USF vehicles are supposed to have a decent moving accuracy, so that is not an argument, panther was incapable of shooting on the move at all as it wasn't its role, in coh its the same, its a brawler tank, not skirmisher.
Sure it is sightly faster than t34s but that is not saying much. You either come up against 2-3 of them, meaning they have 3 chances against your 1 and with just 90-99 armor now....
It is saying much, because T34 is a very fast tank and panther is even faster.
Also, where is all of your support?
As i said, panther is bit of mess as a mobile TD.. doesn't scale well late games against vetted allies TD and heavies, and vulnerable with poorer armor, high hp just means more repair times if it get pen 100% from 90 armor.
TDs are not supposed to counter each other.
Panther will never stand up to allied TDs when they have range advantage, because its not meant to.
You'll always outshoot allied TD in 1v1 situation. |
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