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I was making the point that the KV-85 is rare, and it was rare because it was not very effective. The 85 was a good gun, but it was placed on a then aging tank. Soviet armies at the time rapidly transitioned to the IS-2 which was more effective overall. You can argue that KV-85 was used, and it was, but that does not make it a good fit.
More to the point, you want to trade a fast tank, for a slow bullet sponge that has decent penetration on Ost late armor? That does not seem like a good direction to go. How are you going to stop panthers with that thing?
Not a Relic fan boy, but the KV-1 was far more common, and is already in game. You are correct making a new model would take time and energy. Do you really want them spending time on that for just a few players instead of balancing mutli? It is hard to call someone lazy if you have never seen them work. |
I use this later game tactic all the time, but I don't usually have the resources to buy rocket trucks. I don't buy pak guns if I'm doing this. I do however, make sure I have enough munis to drop a frag bomb or a light howie strike.
I find that soviet players don't space their infantry/Zis defense particularly well. It's often due to the way the map is set up or laziness.
All I need is One panther, 2 Pzg, and one brummbar. I announce my arrival with panther first, and then drop the munitions strike on their weapon crews. IF I'm using mechanized doctrine or Jaeger(one of my favorites), I have a spotting scope advantage.
The only thing that stops the PzG's full stop is the Maxim. Otherwise, I press forward with them while taking losses. While I'm doing this, I'm getting a view as to what's in front of my armor. Even just 2 volleys of rockets- (8) will drop the SU-85 to half health. Then I retreat the Pzshreck pair after they lose entities. Even if I only manage to fire one volley it's often worth it. There is this shock effect that's going on in the other players' head as he shuts off focus forward and there's a movement delay as he backs off awkwardly with SU-85s. Then the Panther moves in while this is occurring and finishes the job. Once the Panther is on top of them, the SU's advantages are lost.
The Brumbar is binded to #2 and I keep it to the rear of the Panther. I make sure it's spaced away from the conscripts, and in any event, it ruins soviet infantry squads in 2 shots. I always try to kill the conscripts first as I am aware that AT nades will doom the panther.
All this sounds to me like you should be the one winning the battle with the Panther. You sound like you are using your strengths and minimizing the weaknesses of these units. So I don't think this argues for the panther not filling its role well. If anything I think you are arguing that the panther fits well. |
My problem with the sniper matchup isn't the twoman soviet sniper but them being able to garrison m3s really...they stop you from getting a single member kill on the soviet snipers
The guards problem is also an issue, but infantry in vehicles shooting on the move is stupid. I really disliked roo's, and I mean I hated them, and this unit functions in a similar manner. I like the very vulnerable PE inf HT that could not hold a sniper.
Also just to add, sprint for soviet snipers is really, really good. |
44 Ostwinds were built.
Do I need to say more?
I can't imagine a better mid ground between T34/76 and IS-2.
Would still be inferior to panther/tiger, but would give it a hard time cost effectively.
I did not realize my comment meant I was arguing that Ostwinds were a good choice for that spot. I agree with you Ostwinds were so rare as to almost not exist, but that has nothing to do with what I stated, and still does not support your argument that Relic is being lazy. |
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I think you maybe theorycrafting quite a bit here. You have to sneak in PG's, how do you do that with units well spaced and surrounding your AT assets?
If they got close enough to the SU85 for the SU85 not to get away that is again a player not using the SU85 to its full strength.
Brumbar is extremely expensive, slow firing and very, very vulnerable to engine damage. It works ok with Panthers but now your talking about a player having more than 1000 mp advantage. In addition, there should be synergy. A good combined arms approach should win.
Again here you have allowed the Ost player another huge mp advantage. If he has lots of arty, use your own, which outranges it and gets precision strike to take it out. Frag bomb is cool, but expensive. Make him spend munitions elsewhere and he will only be able to use it once or twice. Useful yes, but so is so much off map arty.
In the case you described the Ost player should win. They have a diverse army organized to strike at multiple points simultaneously, while the Soviet has a much less diverse army, no mines, and much fewer units.
I want to be clear, I am not arguing Panthers aren't good, they are great. But they should be. |
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Guards at 1cp = no scout car
I don't remember the scout car being as heavily played in the beta, mostly because FHT was so good. |
Being on both ends I'd say the Problem with Panthers is the ability to flank defensive positions almost effortlessly especially with Vet1 ability. I'd like to see this changed as its too easy right now.
The other issue is how Blitz itself changes this tank making it almost invincible. When I'm playing Soviet I'm really glad that majority of German players don't utilise this
Again, blitz can be stopped with engine damage. Afraid of being flanked? Lay mines, place conscripts far out, use guards. Panthers are hard to kill that's the point. They also don't start with blitz (except Elite which is OP), so you always have a warning. Soviet late game requires you to used combined arms. Panther is by design made to go in unsupported and destroy Soviet armor. Even in large team games where players build many Panthers, AS LONG AS THE TEAMS ARE FAIR, I have no problems with Panthers. Good tanks yes, but not insta win button. When teams are unfair then it can feel overwhelming as you struggle to destroy Panthers and they dominate your allies flanks.
Also once you damage a tanks engine, don't forget to use your more common artillery to harass the tank as it retreats. You can continue to damage it and any repairing Pio's that come by. Soviet snipers in the late game cloaked behind the lines make it very hard for ost. Calling in very accurate long range fire.
TLDR: Panthers are fine as is, if you are struggling to defeat them try using strategies that involve damaging engines. |
This I can support. I thought it was weird that we're late-war, and yet the T-34/85 is not only doctrinal, but uncommon among doctrines at that. Put the T-34/85 in T3 as a separate unit from the T-34/76.
T34-85 should be a relatively high cost upgrade that will allow you to build 85's from T3 instead of 76's, preventing need to upgrade to T4 and allowing engagement with heavier armor. Simultaneously ram must be removed. Give T34's flank speed or AP rounds for munitions cost.
Call-in T34-85's would avoid the need to build T3 and upgrade so would still be worth it.
Although KV-85's were built (<200 tanks), they were extremely rare. Not exactly a general answer to Ost heavy armor. Primarily the Soviets relied on IS-2 tanks to engage German heavy armor in tank battles. |
And if conscripts équiped with AT nades aren't in my build order?? And if At nade fails to disable (as it does quite often(wich is not the case of Panzerfaust))?
How are conscripts not in your build order? You can still build them later in the game if you don't get them early. |
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Elite troops should still move back to 2 cp's. I thought the original point of increasing the number of cp's was to phase in units that should not be available at start but which could not wait till 1cp (DSHK as an example). I think elite troops, 120 mortars, and ost MT HT should all be moved back since they have large impacts on early game play. This encourages good T1 play and good micro, as opposed to reliance on elite troops to overwhelm Ost units. The mortars should also move back because of how good they are against infantry.
If you feel that Soviet abilities resolve around early game domination I would argue that the late game needs to change to facilitate Soviets ability to contest those long games more easily. Making one faction really good until X time is not balance. |
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