Good luck but I think you community guys are too optimistic about Relic's future.
With AoE4 underperforming and losing players, Sega only has bad options left;
1) For Relic to save AoE4 they need to postpone CoH3 development asap.
2) Keep CoH3 development on schedule and they lose more AoE money. Then Sega will be forced to cut wasteful spending at some point in the future.
In short, Relic/Sega leadership made a high-risk gamble expanding this studio to over 300 devs.
So far they have lost that gamble.
By law, Sega leadership has a fiduciary duty to its shareholders, not to Relic's studio leadership wishful thinking about running a profitable studio with 300+ devs.
My form of protest: Don't support any 1v1 content. Don't watch it on Youtube, don't talk about it, don't share it, don't sub to those Youtubers. That's what I do to protest. 1v1s balancing ruined team games. This game doesn't need an esports scene, just balance it to keep it fresh instead of boring as it is now.
I hear you. The trouble is a vocal minority (usual competitive players) gets more attention.
This happens to the detriment of CoHs financial success and casuals leaving the game.
Hardcore 1vs1 players simply do not make RTS financially successful. In short, casual/average players make the RTS money.
CoH teamplay is far superior to Starcraft 2.
SC 2 devs have been pretty transparent in interviews about their mistakes to focus solely on 1vs1. The info is out there for those who do the research.
Personally, I enjoy 1vs1 tournaments but I also recognize it's kinda a dying dinosaur outside Starcraft.
Silver lining?
A wise man said; an error does not become a mistake until one refuse to correct it. With that in mind, perhaps there is still hope for CoH3.
The accepted wisdom is that MOBAs badly hurt the RTS competitive scene with their accessibility, team-based play, etc. Was there anything StarCraft 2 could have done to retain its initial momentum?
Ryan Schutter, Designer: Let me preface my answer to this by saying I was not a developer on StarCraft 2 at the time. I was just a player, modder, and fan in a totally different career so this is from my perspective outside of Blizzard and the StarCraft 2 team.
Besides the popularity of MOBAs, the rise of the free-to-play model came about at the same time. I think both had an impact on the perception of StarCraft 2 and its success at the time. But I think that was where the real harm was done, the perception, not the reality. I think StarCraft 2 remained fairly consistent overall, and that MOBAs actually really did a lot not just attracting RTS players, or existing players in general, but also bringing in new players who had not played too many competitive video games at all.
StarCraft 2 continued to chug along with a huge playerbase, and tons of support from Blizzard. As you mentioned, perhaps momentum was impacted, but I think StarCraft 2, and in particular the feeling of mechanical skill requirement hanging over its competitive multiplayer, and the mentality that hardcore 1v1 ladder was the "correct" way to play the game, was always going to have less broad appeal than something like a MOBA. The "ladder anxiety" people feel playing the game is very real as well, and I think playing a team game relieves a lot of that pressure regardless of whether it is a MOBA or something else.
I think if back then StarCraft 2 had something like its Co-op Missions mode that it has now, or perhaps something even more robust, it would have gone a long way to feel like a more welcoming and accessible game. I believe that could have had a real impact, but we'll never know for sure. At the end of the day I think if StarCraft 2 was not the game that it is, there would be a huge hole in competitive games in general. I think a competitive 1v1 game like StarCraft 2 has its own kind of players and following, and I am so proud of what the game is for that community.
All my life I have been preaching that balancing around numbers and stats instead of design decisions is wrong and unfun. Today on the trending stuff this got posted:
Beastyqt Reacts to the: "Next Major RTS Will Fail. This Is Why":
Beastyqt | The REAL Reason Why RTS Games Fail:
Beastyqt also emphasize the importance of player retention. Relic openly stated that retention was one of the primary reasons they gave up on DoW3.
WHY DAWN OF WAR III FAILED, ACCORDING TO RELIC;
When asked about what measurements Relic was looking at regarding Dawn of War III's success, Boudreau stated "Retention and sentiment were the two biggest measures we were watching most closely."
My POV & 2 cents;
Can Relic financially succeed with CoH3? Only if they focus their talent and cut wasteful spending to improve Sega's return on investment (ROI). As of right now, they have RTS talent spread thin.
Prematurely expanding Relic to 300+ devs was a high-risk gamble that can easily backfire.
With AoE4 underperforming and losing players, it's now up to CoH3 to keep a 300+ devs studio financially afloat.
With the CoH2 launch, Relic had 110 devs.
This is not rocket science. 2+2 = 4.
By the end of the day, Relic is a corporation. They are not your friends.
Nowadays with big-budget games, it's all about money, monetization schemes and ROI.
By western law (fiduciary duty), Relic/Sega leaders have one important job. Make a good return on investment from CoH2/DoW3/AoE4. Did they succeed?
lol, hell no.
I'm not posting this to defend Sega's money-making. Just saying if fans/devs fail to discuss good monetization schemes then CoH3 will end like CoH2. Then the CoH3 community will be left to keep the game on life support while Relic/Sega moved on to greener pastures.
But I get the impression Relic is more excited by the addition of War Spoils, the new content delivery system that it hopes will fuel the game's success in the future.
How many times do I have to keep posting this before fans get a grip on the reality of why CoH2 failed? Read between the lines and learn from CoH2 mistakes. An error does not become a mistake until fans/studio/publisher refuse to correct it.
The ultimate CoH2 irony? War Spoils was so horribly broken that the pro-EA Fifa guys in Relic/Sega never got a good chance to fully implement the new monetization scheme.
Yes, the money guys did play the wolf in sheep's clothing.
Shame on you.
So why does Relic/Sega not openly discuss CoH3 monetization schemes?
A few logical conclusions;
1) Relic/Sega scared of being called out as greedy?
2) Incompetence?
3) laziness/negligence?
4) Predatory CoH3 intent disguised as virtue? This is playing the wolf in sheep's clothing.
As a studio/publisher, this is highly immoral as they basically engage in psyops against an innocent fanbase.
Not cool.
Example of EA psyops, playing the wolf in sheep's clothing;
I doubt future Relic games will be good. All of the top tier talent that was at Relic are now in Blackbird Interactive working on Homeworld 3. Quin Duffy (created COH 2 and AOE 4) also just left Relic.
I hope Relic either makes a good CoH3 game or dies trying. Sega and Microsoft funding more Relic failures are counterproductive. Both AoE and CoH are bigger than Relic.
These games will survive without a studio that exists in name only.
You are late to the party friend. I called this out years ago: here citing the same proof as you since i am a genius.
but i agree aoe4 sucks little balls with potential to not suck at all
True, but some fans and/or devs still live in denial after the failure of AoE4. This is using Relic's/Sega's own success criteria such as player retention.
Based on previous Relic interviews they want to improve player retention with future games.
This is a big deal regarding the success criteria of AoE4 and CoH3.
Remember, this was one of the primary reasons Relic/Sega gave up on DoW3. This is using their own words.
When asked about what measurements Relic was looking at regarding Dawn of War III's success, Boudreau stated "Retention and sentiment were the two biggest measures we were watching most closely."
You are talking about a company that thinks "mappable hotkeys" in 2022 is a big thing to brag about (check out AOE4 updates roadmap), so I think the answer is somewhere there.
Based on previous Relic interviews they want to improve player retention with future games.
This is a big deal regarding the success criteria of AoE4 and CoH3.
Remember, this was one of the primary reasons Relic/Sega gave up on DoW3. This is using their own words.
When asked about what measurements Relic was looking at regarding Dawn of War III's success, Boudreau stated "Retention and sentiment were the two biggest measures we were watching most closely."
They need a new engine badly. Using the Same Engine for COH1 + COH2 + COH3 + Dawn of War 2/3 and AOE 4 is stretching it.
Only so much you can do with 1 CPU core and 3 gigs of Ram.
Whether this is true or not.
No amount of Microsoft/Sega money can fix incompetence and/or laziness. Perhaps this is caused by an ongoing talent bleed or something else, Sega/MS needs to figure this out. If MS fails to act on this, AoE4 will be dead within a year.
Speaking with German publication Golem in a recent interview, game director Quinn Duffy was asked if he and his team of developers are prepared for crunch to ensure Age of Empires 4 releases on schedule.
He revealed that crunch has never been an issue at Relic Entertainment. In fact, the only time Duffy could remember having to endure crunch was with Company of Heroes 2 nearly a decade ago and even there, staffers had to only put in a couple of weeks at most of overtime.
Both Microsoft and Sega have been extremely generous with Relic. If this studio was owned by EA or Activision they would have died years ago.
Team games keep players longer in the game because even if you lose interest, your friends might still play. This allows selling of more DLCs, that's why they get more focus.
*snip*
StarCraft 2 continued to chug along with a huge playerbase, and tons of support from Blizzard. As you mentioned, perhaps momentum was impacted, but I think StarCraft 2, and in particular the feeling of mechanical skill requirement hanging over its competitive multiplayer, and the mentality that hardcore 1v1 ladder was the "correct" way to play the game, was always going to have less broad appeal than something like a MOBA. The "ladder anxiety" people feel playing the game is very real as well, and I think playing a team game relieves a lot of that pressure regardless of whether it is a MOBA or something else.
I think if back then StarCraft 2 had something like its Co-op Missions mode that it has now, or perhaps something even more robust, it would have gone a long way to feel like a more welcoming and accessible game. I believe that could have had a real impact, but we'll never know for sure.
From a publisher's point of view, Co-op is lucrative in that it allows for deeper monetization with MTX and not just cosmetics. As PVP oriented pay-to-win MTX becomes 'pay-to-help' your team (NPC game environment).
The potential of CoH team games is far superior to any other RTS games except maybe dead IPs such as World In Conflict that had unique team play design.
The 1vs1 audience will never be the future of CoH.
Why should Sega even bother trying to compete against SC2 1vs1 when future CoH games can make more money from team players and co-ops.
I'm not saying CoH3 can't build a larger 1vs1 audience, but fans need to know they are fighting an uphill battle.
I thought the beta was great. I was surprised when the game was actually playable, it was just their marketing that was terrible.
Looking forward to the actual release.
Yes, AoE4 has some potential
But,
AoE4 fans are learning the hard way that Relic still sucks at post-launch support.
What Sega and Microsoft need to understand, this is not a money issue. Throwing a bunch of money at CoH3 and AoE4 will NOT fix this.
The number of players doesn’t lie. Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition is now 2x times more popular than AoE4.
As seen by the steam charts, Age of Empires II: Definitive Edition has been very consistent in active players since launch.
What does it take for Sega/Microsoft to wake up?
I'm not saying this just as a fan, but from an investor point of view.
Please for your own sake and the future of AoE4/CoH3 rethinks the relationship with Relic. Blackbird Interactive = Relic 2.0