Why not just give them some sort of explosive resistance on higher vet? I'm all up for Ostheer buffs but I'd rather have them stay with their iconic 4 men squads.
While I agree that Whermact Infantry is in need of some love, I also feel that getting a 5th man is the wrong way to do it as its just a bandaid to the real problem in our beloved game.
Comparing COH 1 to COH 2 for a moment, Each Squad of Infantry had different HP Values. For example US Rifleman were a 6 man squad, each man in the squad had 55 HP for a total of 330 HP, while a Whermact Grenadier Squad was a 4 man squad with 80 HP per man for a total of 320 HP. This is important because total squad HP Values were roughly equivalent. This gave the German factions in COH1 a feeling that even though they were fewer in Number, the Infantry were better trained as result. Come to COH2 and it is the complete opposite. For Whermacht, Ostruppen have a total of 480 HP while Grenadiers have 320 HP. This is why everyone wants an extra man, the extra squad health means less chance of your squads getting instantly wiped out by RNG.
What I would rather see is Relic stop taking shortcuts with COH 2 as has been the case throughout its history since Beta and do proper gameplay design decisions that would be healthy for the game overall.
Now say for example instead of being balanced around 80 HP Models what if Mortars,explosives and artillery and such were balanced around the idea of 60 HP models. Then they would have modifiers against the things they were designed to counter to keep the damage the same vs counters but now they have reduced chance of Squad Wiping and can be made more consistent instead of having the RNG Lotteries that we have now. Not only would this help out Grenadiers but other 4 man squads such as partisans and British Infantry Sections as the 5 Man upgrade can be delayed into later in the game.
With such a change then Grenadiers would no longer need a 5th man, just a minor change to Vet 1 to be more useful and the unit will be fine. Considering the amount of work involved for such a change, Relic is not going to put any real effort into the game so most likely Grenadiers will become a 5 man Squad and in the process something else will get messed up and the cycle will repeat again with something else. |
The problem with the Comet is that not only it was nerfed, but that the nerf was multi-faceted
In it's original form, Comet was powerful on its own, and borderline broken when massed, so? it had both its performance nerfed, and popcap increased, so now you end up with a vehicle that's isn't impactful enough to justify it's cost if you only get 1 of them, nor is it viable to mass it due to it's price and high popcap (unlike, say P4, or Panther in team games). Anyway, it's not all that useful, because Churchill can bully mediums as well, and it has much better synergy with firefly anyway due to its health.
Comet is a tank with high cost, high popcap, 50f side-tech, cromwell level AI (so, worse than average) and ok-ish AT, but not much more than churchill (as in, still can't realiably fight panthers, and deals with mediums slightly better). Its in a really weird spot of being "the most premium of mediums" and it suffers for it.
Less than mediocre vet doesn't help either, that definitely needs to be looked at, regardless of any other changes.
I'd say the formula for Comet needs to change
Either we make it closer to other "generalist-premiums" by lowering it's armor to 210/220, range to 40, pen to 160-140, buffing its AI to a decent level, and lowering the price and popcap accordingly to make it possible to mass (34/85, Sherman E8 sort of thing)
Or we turn it into Panther-style AT-brawler: decent health, armor, 50 range, more pen etc. then we nerf it's AI and call it a day. Tank destroyer than relies on diving and getting closer rather than sniping from 60 range
OR, we buff it, turn it into a mini-pershing (or Tiger, whatever), buff it's AI, 50 range, more pen and whatnot, increase the price to 200f and limit to 1 on the field, so you can't spam them.
Make it so its impactful enough when it's alone, or viable to have multiples of, because right now its neither.
Since British do not have a Heavy tank, Comet would fit that role fine if it was limited to 1 and adjusted to be like a Pershing. |
One of the reasons weapon upgrades aren’t being considered is that the only weapons you can give them are SVTs. Sure the DP 28 doesn’t match LMGs, but you have a 6 man squad with cheap reinforce, high utility and reasonable veterancy that you will end up with very tedious LMG wars with Ostheer and it stacks well with their ability to build cover.
We’re seeing what can be done first with Conscripts to reinforce their support and ability to out attrition the enemy. We had other ideas, though, for the upgrade like a cover bonus to reinforce their role of the unit wanting to fight from cover late game and be a unit to inefficiently attack into without support.
Personally I feel Conscripts should be more like Ostruppen, 200 MP, 15 MP reinforce and the requirement to be in cover to gain an accuracy bonus. |
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Cloaking for Raketen should be changed to only work within your own territory as the ability is intended to be used defensively. |
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Compared to other RTS games, say like Starcraft, Company of Heroes 2 has a big focus on unit preservation. You are rewarded for keeping your units alive in the form of Veterancy. At the moment there are a few units in the game that struggle to hit max Veterancy regardless of how good one individual plays. The Kubelwagon is one of those units which needs to be fixed because at the moment one of the core basic gameplay mechanics is broken. Trying to argue otherwise is disingenuous. Rather than playing faction politics, I ask when was the last time anyone on this forum saw a Vet 5 Kubelwagon against someone who wasn't AFK or playing against the AI. You will see Maxed out Vet Rifleman, Grenadiers, Machine Guns, AT Guns etc, never in my history of playing (almost 6000 hours on COH2) have I ever seen a Vet 5 Kubelwagon. This is broken and needs to be fixed for the betterment of our beloved COH2. Even if the Kubelwagon comes with some nerfs (limited to 1, fuel cost etc) I believe every unit should be able to hit Veterancy cap in a reasonable and fair fashion. The second thing is every unit should have a CLEAR Role on what it is supposed to do. Many units lack these definitive roles which is why we have lackluster units such as the KV-1 which are rarely seen in games. |
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Kubelwagon MG-34 Weapon Stats
Accuracy = Far 0.35
Mid 0.55
Near 0.7
Universal Carrier Weapon Stats
Accuracy = Far 0.6
Mid 0.7
Near 0.8
Heavy Machine Guns (Mg-42, Vickers etc) in General tend to have low accuracy and damage due to the fact that they have suppression. When the Kubelwagon used to function as OKW's Machine Gun, the low accuracy made sense however they never updated its weapon stats to compensate for the lack of suppression. The Kubelwagon should be brought up to the Universal Carrier in terms of accuracy.
Far 0.55
Mid 0.65
Near 0.75
This would make the Kubelwagon an option, at the moment you are better off using that manpower on something else more useful which is why you see the typical 3 Volks opening.
In addition the Veterancy for the unit is complete ass. Let's take a look at the Veterancy.
Kubelwagon Veterancy
Vet 1 : Unlocks the 'Detection' ability
Vet 2 : +20% speed, +20% rotation speed, +25% ac/de-celeration
Vet 3 : Passive self-repairing
Vet 4 : +20% burst duration, +30% accuracy
Vet 5 : -29% received accuracy, passive suppression
It requires 3535 Experience in order to hit Vet 5. The Soviet M3A1 Scout Car only needs 1840 experience to be maxed out. Considering that these units aren't viable past the first 5 minutes of the game, it doesn't make sense for the Kubelwagon's veterancy to be so high, especially when the veterancy it gets is mostly useless outside of the Vet 1 ability.
Total List of Improvements needed for Kubelwagon
Accuracy Improved
Some form of Veterancy rework/Improvements
Improve Weapon Cone of Fire (Since it is no longer a suppression platform this would allow it to flank easier)
Improved Cost
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We don't need to do endless buff loop.
We need to bring mid and late game cons on the level of LMG grens, so they actually can contest any infantry. Axis elites roflstomp them so bad its not even funny, volks and grens outscale their high vet without any effort through weapon upgrades. Something that isn't DP-28 is needed at T3/T4 level to make them cost efficient infantry.
Even the shittiest infantry in game, osttruppen, outscales cons now with LMG upgrade.
It simply baffles my mind what kind of mental gymnastics were performed to get to the conclusion that doctrinal meme unit for early map control and recrewing team weapons should get weapon upgrade, but mainline infantry that is supposed to be army's backbone shouldn't after so many years of the exact same problem existing.
I agree here, personally Conscripts should be able to get PPSH with T3, and the PPSH Doctrine Upgrade should be replaced with some form of LMG (like DP-28) or SVT-40s to mirror the G-43 upgrade that Grenadiers have. |
The vet 5 system is one of many vestigial remains of the original, awful design of OKW.
They could only secure a handful of sectors. They were starved of fuel and munitions. They were expected to bunker in on a corner of the map and fight a numerically superior foe with elite troops and vehicles floated on a backbone of Volks.
This was also when the cancerous old school mentality of ‘If Axis survive to late game they get a free win’ was riding high. Contrary to all historical context, where the Axis early war gains were purely based on speed and shock – not raw strength. The giants on either side took time to get going, but they absolutely had every long term advantage possible. But I digress.
It was awful. It was rightly ditched. A lot of that terrible concept has been fixed! The base defences no longer shoot planes, their resource income was normalized alongside their unit costs, the conversion abilities were removed.
However, some relics of that past remain, and Relic (lel) most likely won’t ever find the people or funds to fix them. Vet 5 should be for nobody or for everybody. They still have base defences that deny light vehicles despite being no more vulnerable to them. They still have an IR halftrack and plane-free offmap recon.
At the least, the Vet 5 system was retooled. A bit. It still is far from perfect.
That said, JLI are bust even without it. They are unit sniping recon squads. Pathfinders are a GOOD example of this. They are fragile and expensive and help swing fights by focusing down low health models.
JLI are bad. They do the same thing as Pathfinders – but also, they are incredibly durable. And their snipe point is so high that they can trigger it totally solo.
There is absolutely no need for JLI to become so durable at any vet.
I agree that the Vet 5 System needs to go for OKW, or be available to everyone in some form. For example All Units have 3 levels of Vet for all factions, while elite type of units could go up to Vet 5 as a way to weaken call in units initially and having them scale better later on into a match. |
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The biggest issue with the MG-34 in my personal opinion isn't so much the HMG-34 itself but the Vet for the unit. Getting any support weapon for OKW to vet 5 is an achievement of itself and usually when you do get something to Vet 5, it will get one shotted by some form of rng which defeats the purpose of having Vet 5.
EXP Per Vet Level for Maxim (Soviet)
Vet 1: 480
Vet 2: 960
Vet 3: 1920
EXP Per Vet Level for Vickers (British)
Vet 1: 480
Vet 2: 960
Vet 3: 1920
EXP Per Vet Level for 50 Cal (USF)
Vet 1: 540
Vet 2: 1080
Vet 3: 2160
EXP per Vet level for HMG-34 (OKW)
Vet 1: 400
Vet 2: 800
Vet 3: 1600
Vet 4: 2132
Vet 5: 2666
EXP Per Vet Level for MG-42 (Whermact)
Vet 1: 480
Vet 2: 960
Vet 3: 1920
I would like to see better EXP tables for Support Weapon Vet in all factions.
For example
Proposed EXP Tables for All HMGs
Vet 1: 400 EXP
Vet 2: 800 EXP
Vet 3: 1200 EXP
The purpose of Vet is to have your units scale in strength/power by rewarding unit preservation. The whole premise of the game is to prevent squad wipes which is why we have a retreat mechanic. Most Support Weapons, HMGs, Mortars etc will get wiped very easily which causes them not to scale into the mid/late game phases of the game. This is why you see Volksgrenadier blobs, The Vet 5 system works for Volksgrenadier Infantry Gameplay. For Support Units/Weapons such as the Kubelwagon/HMG-34 for example it just doesn't work well.
Another thing that the game is supposed to promote is the idea of combined arms. It would be nice if we had a system in place for each faction that would promote this concept and reward it via shared Veterancy. For example, Conscripts would share veterancy with nearby Maxims if they purchase Molotov/AT Grenades. After getting T2 for Whermact, Grenadiers share vet with MG-42s and so on.
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As Katitof said though try to be more mobile and aggressive as opposed to static gameplay. In addition you could build Howitzers and the Vet 1 ability will automatically fire at enemy artillery units.
On a side note it would be nice if they brought back the Panzerfeldhaubitze 18M auf Geschützwagen III/IV (Sf) Hummel from COH 1 in some way. |
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