Thats not true. Guards, grens and paras become significantly better with weapon upgrades, but they are not weak without them considering timings. PF in early game is objectively the weakest inf in the game considering their price.
Yeah but why? I mean you either go full house PF or 1 Volk (for sandbag) and 3 PF. There is no reason to mix volks with PFs like what so ever, simply because you will end up with a handicapped army anyway.
The only somewhat realistic scenario is 3 volks and 1 PF later upgraded with Schrecks maybe. Ofcouse exluding situations where OKW go full retard and gets like up to 5 inf squads.
This is actually funny question what is easier to deal with PF blobs or Obers. As I was saying previously obersts are uttery retarded unit, expecially in teamgames. Because the only justification of its overpowered nature - the shit DPS scaling of Volks past mid game.
Assault Guards and Airborne Guards without upgrades are literal penal squad levels of damage at CP2, reg guards are penal with 2 PTRS so yes they are weak for their timings. They are literally designed to be upgraded. Paras get slightly better guns and 1 more man than rifles but cost significantly more and come at CP3. At that point your vetted Rifles would be stronger to significantly if they have Bars so the only point in buying them is to upgrade them.
Your are vastly exaggerating how weak PF are to start the game, both Isildur and Kimbo used a 2VG/2PF opening against USF and both won decisively. They did it in the AECOH tournament, which leads me to believe that these ELITE players thought that the "weak" start was worth it for later gains.
EDIT: Rewatching, they both also upgraded their PF squad first my guess being other than DPS the extra 7 sight helps immensely when screening for the FlakTrack.
Truthfully, I find Obers easier to deal with as a T1 Soviet player and USF player. I can focus down Ober squads and if caught out of position they have no snare. However it is impossible to focus down PF blobs due to the way the unit DPS is constructed along with extra long snare and sight. |
Their weakness is the fact that they suck ass in early game, but in teamgames its less noticable, but its still true.
Whole concept of "suffer early, kill later" was flawed from the beggining. If they were at least partly better then volks early then their G43 could have been toned down, but as it stands right now it would be unfair to nerf G43 without giving any early game buffs in return, since there would be 0 point of getting them over volks, exept maybe for snare.
Their powerspike is pretty much the single reason why they are not overlapping with volks to begin with, since you can rely less on elites using them.
That not a real weakness since it applies to several units. Grens, Guards, Paratroopers are mediocre to bad without their upgrades. They are designed to be upgraded which allows opponent to make decisions on how to counter. Yet PF also get added utility which allows mixing with VG early to work around their "weakness" and similar cost allows OKW to completely forget about VG later.
Also according to some forum members, OKW is designed to upgun to Obers as the game progresses. Not having to do that is a massive strength by itself. |
Yeah, that got me interested in Ass Grens in the first place. I only used it a few times before.
Would you suggest going for Assault Grenadiers against USF if the player has Mechanized/WC51?
I am actually a Soviet/USF player, tried it out due to having issues countering the build.
If your opponent expects you to go ass gren clown car and WC will bleed you. However, WC51 needs muni to be able to do damage so if they rush it out first you have a chance to push them hard since they will be down on firepower. Try not to overextend so they don't go for a wipe on retreat.
With mechanized if you can keep extreme pressure you can actually get the PGren in clown car without having to go to BP1. Against Penal builds it is extremely good due to their high initial and reinforce cost along with lack of snare. When sprint gets added back it might actually make it OP vs Penal builds.
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Thanks for your post and suggestions.
I'll keep what you wrote in mind, especially about maps
The new beta will actually buff the build a bit. Sprint will be available without BP1 but will cost 20 muni. That will help a lot with closing the distance in early engagements. With mechanized if you do well fuel wise you can get Stug E after BP2. Against soviet T1 it can be extremely punishing as long as you support it against PTRS Penal and Guards. USF LT doesn't have a great counter so it will bleed them fairly well. |
I mentioned in the general feedback thread but Scott needs some kind of "area denial" barrage option as with Vet it's barrage becomes super accurate but a lot of times you really just need to force a bunch of support weapons to move or deny a VP Circle.
Barring that it feels like the OHK radius could be bumped up slightly. Shell speed could by slowed or additional nerfs if needed.
Maybe something like replace smoke canister with Flame rounds, it could displace support units, damage bunkers over time and deny area. Would be different from Pak howi and would give USF stock flame unit. |
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Played this guy before, had him on the backfoot until P4J hit the field and he cameback.
Started game with engi, built T1 and rushed clown car. I had a feeling we would go for same gas. He forced my initial engi to retreat car, came to push him back while engi and penal cleaned up. I pretty much punished him early game until he got my flamer clown car out of position. I have more gas so I rushed out T70 got a wipe with penal back up but he killed T70 with Puma.
I get out Dshka and pretty much ignore his puma and keep map control. I get out T34 out first and keep bullying his infantry. Little by little becomes a tank race. He gets P4J and I have 3 T34, lose 1 trying to kill his tank so I break away and get Puma. Little by Little he trades his infantry for Obers, which puzzles me due to feeling like he shouldn't have as much mp as he does. He ends up stealing MG, I steal rak, he kills tanks I kill some.
Score is 100 - 400 in my favor but he pulls comeback now.
Even though I have map I am really low on MP so he claws back with Tiger and Obers which are trading efficiently. I make Katy to try and get some wipes to slow him down but don't get to much. I keep poking back and forth but my T34 decide to literally hit everything but mg/obers/rak when I catch them out of position. He eventually pushes me back to base with Tiger and P4J while also decrewing my 120 mortar which got to VET3. I am super frustrated now since despite him losing several units he seems to be able to maintain pressure.
At this point I think he either underestimated my tank forces or got cocky so I catch him out of position. Get both Tiger and P4J while losing 2 T34. He is severely undermanned now so we keep attacking middle point in waves since he has around 18 points and I have around 60. I get a few more wipes while he get a panther out, he uses it to runover troops but it doesn't do much with its main gun which allows me to cap and force him to come to me. I go all in to hold on to VP and get the win.
After watching the replay it looks like most of my MP bleed came from T34 underperformance, took 5 to kill 2 P4J and Puma.
We were trading pretty evenly inf wise which is a win for me due to reinforce cost.
Penal with stolen LMG is good, Penal with X2 LMG is an inf squad eraser.
Should have rushed T34, T70 requires a lot more baby sitting to pay off.
P4J seems to overperform for cost compared to Panther, more due to armor than the gun.
EDIT: Just realized I beat a top 100 player, feeling pretty good.
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I feel with 5 more range, for I believe 40 range total, would allow a shot or 2 to soften up the enemy while soviet inf moved in. Axis has lots of long range inf so having AI range of 35 means they are getting hurt before doing anything meaningful. |
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Looked at his commanders and I assumed he would go Ostruppen, so I wanted mg and mortar to bleed and slow him down.
Little did I know, he went with Ostruppen Commander but only made Pioneer.
Start the game 2 engi to clown car to try and bleed his ostrupp before they fight with Penals. As I am capping I see he pushes my cutoff with 2 pioneers which I fight back with using car and 2 engi. Beat them back repair and fight yet another Pioneer squad. On the other side my penal almost got wiped by 2 pioneers. At this point I am wondering what the hell is going on. He pushes my cutoff again with 3 i think but I caught him unaware and got a satchel wipe. I am now hiding my clown car since he is most likely rushing a Scout car which comes out at about 5 mins. At this point I have an mg and just punish him back and control decent map so I flank him with Penal squad and rush his scout car. He was trying to build a 2nd but I think he felt it would go the same way since he has no way to push me back.
GG
Weird build that might have worked if I went with standard Conscript opening. Doubling a conscript squad would be devastating.
Also assuming he was going to use call in for team weapons but he was losing to much for it to work out.
Anyone else see someone try this. |
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Now that I have played a couple games I still feel this commander is unbalanced.
I played 4 games, 3 vs brits which I lost and 1 vs Soviets which I won.
Two of the games vs Brits I eventually controlled both fuel points, I just don't know UKF timings, units, builds since I hate the faction.
The first match I played the enemy made Raid sections which beat my ASSGrens, however I still pushed him and had him on LOCK, the only reason I lost was that I made a medic/command bunker which chewed up my muni. I didn't know about the M45 quad since I don't play UKF which is what saved him and literally lost me the game.
2nd match I rushed cutoff, fought back and forth, he made mortar which is doctrinal. I controlled Gas 90 percent of the game, made Ostwind-werfer-tiger-panther. I just don't know how to beat emplacements. Maybe back teching to Mortar would have worked. he literally rushed as hard as he could to make it. Pretty much I felt if I had any recent experience with OST I would have won. All due to the commander opening.
EDIT:Thinking it over going for Brum instead of panther and werfer would have been better and switched the game in my favor due to the bunker busting ability.
Against soviets it was hold out against penals and car until my car came out. He had decent gas but I rushed him with 2 clowncars which probably led to to much bleed which meant GG. Funny enough, we kept avoiding each other so I teched up to get that CP2 since it was taking so long. |
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I feel the biggest issue the AT has is the other ammo range is horrible. Therefore it is hard to pay for itself in just AT performance. |
Alex.
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