I am not saying it should be just as vulnerable to axis indirects as other mortars, what I'm saying that you practically cant counter it with your indirects even if you play right\enemy plays wrong. Even ostheer counter-barrage dont work.
There is a difference in being "hard to counter" and "almost impossible to counter". This problem only leads to the fact that soviet players can get 120mm mortar closer to the frontline, effectively neutralising the fact that its auto-fire range was nerfed. Or if there are mass enemy indirects\inf to stay at safe range and use barrage.
And speaking of situations you've discribed, yes its true that its less effective against blobs, but the problem is that in teamgames soviets already abusing maxims themselfs on a line maps or use penal blobs themselfs into 120mm mortars.
With maxims its self-explanatory, with Penals even if Ostheer\OKW goes full gren\volks build, you just need to stay in cover with your penals and zone volks\grens away from your 120mm, because they cant push penals into close\mid range and 120mm mortar in long fire-fights will eventually hit them.
In vacuum yes, 120mm is vulnerable to flanks and mass inf, but on practice its really hard to get to it. By the time soviets can call-in 120mm mortars both Ost\OKW dont have properly established army to orginize such pushes, which can "just" overhelm. They might be able to out-play soviet player, but its a question of a player skill which is irrelevant on the topic.
And even if you somehow managed to flank and push, soviet player still have 4 models to spare + retreat button on top of it.
Situation is becoming even more ludacris when you add supporting teammates.
I mean sure Panzerwerfers can counter it, Stuka can counter it somewhat, but what difference it makes if you are unchallanged for at least 1\3 of the game (without stuka around for even more). Which on its own just allows you to snowball like crazy.
Just theory crafting, as Ost have you tried making the mortar halftrack. They hit the field at the same time and the halftrack is more mobile so you should be able to keep pressure up. As OKW maybe the fire rounds I know it is doctrinal but it should constantly force the mortar to move which makes it fairly useless. |
Recently tried some Tank Hunter Tactics, and found it absurdly fun. It's got a bunch of stuff unique to that commander only. There's something super satisfying about chucking a stream of AT nades to instagib vehicles from stealth, besides the little AT mines everywhere and PTAB AT bombing runs, which also does a decent job vaporizing blobs despite its name... B4 is always good for the occasional lulz.
Are you playing team games or 1v1?
Yea when the B4 hits it is hilarious more when they aren't expecting it. |
I have been trying different commanders that seem to synergize with T1. Counterattack seems decent with Shocks/Mother Russia/KV1. Recon planes are always useful and B4 depends but can be extremely good. I like KV1 vs OST 1v1 due to it forcing an escalation to BP4 for more consistent performance in tank fights.
Started with engi/car and noticed he had 2 pioneers. Most likely meant he was going for T1 skip then I saw ass grens so I knew he was skipping. He attacked the cutoff early and I stalled him with penals and retreat before any model loss to try and reduce MP bleed as much as possible. While he is at my cutoff I use clown car to get both his cutoffs which forces him to back track to recap. I push him back with Penals and recap my cutoffs.
I lose my Clown car when I try and tell it to go somewhere else and it decides to do a 360 degree turn. I then see he rushed out a 4min Pgren so I am at an inf disadvantage since I know scout car is coming so one of my Penals needs to be upgraded. He rushes to cutoff my fuel again but I finally have 2CP so I call in Shock troops. At the same time I send 2 penals to his cutoff which slows down his reinforcement of PG. My Shocks end up wiping his PG as they retreat but I thought they had gotten away so I held on to a Penal on the retreat path but didn't see them. The loss of this PG really messes up his strat since I can now bully him with Penals as shocks close in.
I rebuild car to go Scout car hunting, lose it but get the scout car abandon. I rush to it with my infantry so make sure he doesn't repair it but he accidently destroys it as his MG opens fire.
At this point he gets really passive, so I finally have time to save for base healing and build tech structures while gaining map control. I don't want to build a T70 since I am pretty sure he is trying to get a Stug E out as soon as he can. I send my engi to the mid and see what he has been doing. He built some MG and to defend middle while he built bunkers and S-mines to lock it down. Going to have to deal with it but dont have enough munis yet to take it out at once. He ends up building another PG which I bully with a Penal and Shock trooper, wiping it with a retreat nade. Felt great since I always mess that up. He gets MGs on his bunkers and moves his MG42 out to flanks, which lets me push with a Shock trooper for smoke nade while Penal comes in and satchels both bunkers.
He counters with his Stug E which forces me to retreat and lose Penal through S-mine field. Due to my fuel control I have been able to save up for KV1, I use it to bleed his infantry but his AT gun forces me back. At this point he seems to be making more and more mistakes and starts to blob more so I decide to make B4. He attempts to go for left side map and gas I stall him long enough to finally build and shoot gun, forcing his MG and 3rd PG squad to retreat.
He builds and Ostwind to counter my recon overflights and help infantry fights go his way but it is too late. I have 2nd KV1 built and catch him clumped in the middle. I bait him causing him to get stuck on the bridge and my B4 wipes both AT guns, destroys Ostwind and forces his PG to retreat or face getting wiped. He drops GG.
Despite the rough start I knew I had I could mess his gameplan up if I got KV1 out.
Losing the PG so early really messed him up, he seemed to get a lot more passive as the game went on. My guess is he had a specific army composition he wanted and didn't want to deviate.
Skipping MG and attacking with 2 Pios and 2 Ass grens really caught me off guard but I think getting an MG after the 2nd ass gren would have let him lock a side down instead of teching and going for the PG. It gave me a chance to catch up adjust what I wanted to do. |
Yeah I looked in the game and for comparison Leig reinforces for 22 per man and Pack Howitzer reinforces for 20 per man. I think that the 120mm could easily stay useful with a 20mp reinforce cost. Anything more and it's not really going to do anything, because of recrewing and merge.
EDIT: I'm not knowledgable with the mod tools I guess. Perhaps there's a way to keep reinforce cost high after recrew.
30 per man might be good or it might be too much, I don't know. I'll have to surrender the conversation to users more knowledgable about game balance.
Cant speak for other users/abusers of the 120mm Mortar, but increasing reinforce cost doesn't really do anything. I only reinforce the mortar to 3 models especially if I have 2 of them. Need that sweet sweet POP CAP for late game. Could be the difference between a T3476 or 85. |
Had a weird day with the servers got placed against someone named Peanut who I think is a top 50 player, needless to say he kicked my ass good. Then I had a few games with massive lag. Restarted the game and I think I got a better server.
Started off with eni/clowncar/Penal x3, I have played against him before and he has rushed a scout car against me before. I make PTRS penal, he never makes car so thats cool. We harrass each others gas, and in a moment of not paying attention he wipes a penal squad which ain't cool. I see that he has PG so not only am I down a unit he also has an elite inf. I have shocks but they are not the best for this map due to shock blockers being close to the fringes of the map.
Then I notice he goes for G43 upgrades, guess my shocks ain't gonna be so useless after all. He also keeps trying to hide his units with ambush camo, so I end up making a 120 mortar to punish his static play. It works, don't get a lot of kills but some solid hits force him to keep moving around. I lose my clown car but decide to remake it just in case I need some PTRS shenanigans.
He has map control so he gets his tank out first which doesn't end up doing much until I get my T3485 out, we poke and prod each other but nothing really happens until I get caught with my pants down. He got 2 snares off back to back so he goes in for the kill. I try to reverse over the path of one of my mines but he doesn't push forward enough to get snared. As I am about to lose my tank to his push, my lazy ass PTRS Penals finally decide to show up with a well placed flank and box him in, get the snare then kill.
We are back to tankless fights but I start to get more map control back he gets another P4 and I get another T3485 along with a 2nd mortar. He has a hard time attacking my mortars so even though they aren't racking up the most kills they literally change make most engagement go my way due to all the hp damage they are doing.
He ends up getting a brumbar which messes me up for a bit but I know my mortars are annoying the hell out of him. I end up killing his P4 and wipe a gren with mortar strike. Little by little game is going my way, VP are definetly in my favor, and the arty half track he made is failing to wipe my mortars.
He ends up making a panther and Pushes me with his army, he gets to close and I push back his Brumbar with a AT satchel while attacking his army with 3 T34, I kill a Shrek PG and beat up his Panther but he kills 2 tanks and gets away.
Shit is looking bleak once again but I rush my infantry before he can set himself up, for my efforts I am rewarded with his retreating brumbar cutoff from the rest of his army. I get another satchel off and kill it. I start to build another Tank to help with the last Panther. Army sizes are comparable but a lot of his army is AT focused. we go back and forth a few times and I end up snaring his Panther with At satchel and kill it off. Mortars are paying off heavily, but I guess he finally decides to go all in with infantry and steals a mortar while killing my tanks when I try to kill his stug.
I have him down to 20 points but I lost a lot I am only down to 27 pop, on the replay he had ~70pop. I say GG, thinking it is all over but I decide to play til the end since it is my last game of the day. I decide to make a Katy and keep my Shocks out there as much as possible, their durability allows me to hold on and win as little by little I rebuild my infantry. His AT at this point is pretty much useless so I am able to keep the pressure on with volleys and smoke grenades.
I win. GG
I think if he went for LMG and Stugs earlier he probably would have won. His Panther was useless for AI and his Panzerwerfer didn't really pay off. His brumbar was a beast though. |
"The "armor" statistic in COH2 reduces the damage your infantry take from small arms fire (SMGs, rifles, machine guns, etc.). It does not prevent damage from flames or explosives (mortars, tank shells, grenades, artillery)."
Source
To put it simply:
When inf used to have armor, they were hit more often but damaged they recieved was reduced because of the mentioned armor.
When armor was replaced with rec.acc all inf started to "avoid being hit" based on RNG rolls, while taking 100% damage if they get hit.
Do you remember why Shock troops kept their armor? What benefit does it have over just starting with small target size. |
Been going Soviet Shock vs OKW to shake it up from my usual commanders. Game ended up going to about 1 hour, both of us under 50 points. Spammed the hell out of delayed fuse, got up to about 40 kills on mortar
Opened with engi to clown car started capping and noticed he had Fussies. I sent my engi/car to cap while my penal stalled his attempt to decap my cutoff. We trade back and forth with me getting several decaps to stall him and he cut me off a few times also. Get Shock troops to scare him off whenever I flank him.
I eventually get a 120 mortar that starts to put more and more engagements my way due to him blobbing up his PF, after a bit of back and forth I wipe 1 with a satchel but he gets the Penal as it retreats. Felt like I came out ahead due to him losing Vet and muni sunk in it.
I get T3485 out and use it to cause a little bleed and stall any pushes. I feel I am in the lead now with double 120 mortars killing all his pushes. I decide to attack Schwerer after I see P4J to delay any other Tanks from hitting the field. I use mortars to smoke and get the kill with satchels and arty strike. However, he pushed me at the same time killed my T3485 and stole a mortar.
Game has now swung heavily in his favor, but I do have a T34 on the way. I pretty much stall, let my mortar due its thing while he keeps harassing my cutoff. After a few pokes I finally get my PTRS Penal out on the flank. I then attack him head on and push back his raks and his army while getting the AT Satchel off.
This is my chance so I rush in and get the kill with literally 1 hit worth of HP left. I fall back, repair my army and build 2nd T3485. Points are heavily in his favor but army composition is in my favor. I little by little bombard his team weapons with delayed fuses for massive damage while holding on to VP. He finally gets the KT on the field which means he hasn't been building replacement units. I attack him but end up losing a shock troop. I call in arty which kills a vetted PF squad so good trade I guess, we keep prodding each other until I flank him again and get AT satchel off.
It is go time, send 2 T3485 and SU85 and rush in while my Vet3 Shock troop harasses his Raks. I get the kill but lose 1 T3485 and have to repair the other. Game is again in my favor as I call in another T3485 and literally try to bleed him as much as possible when he tries to cap VP. He never replaces lost inf squad, only going for MG which is annoying at first however once I know their positions Shocks force them to retreat.
He calls in another KT but he doesn't have the army to press me, so I take my time and scout with a unit so Raks dont catch me slippin. I keep flanking him so he gets really hesistant with his KT which allows me to hold on to middle VP. Once he drops to last 20 he sends his entire army to middle as do I. I stop the decap and win. GG |
Regular Guards are more versatile but I like the Airborne LMG better due to there passive healing and dedicated long range damage which soviets lack. Reg guards do decent but I don't feel like they strike fear in CQC units.
Edit: I believe all guards can fire LMG on the move. |
What is the motivation behind the bigger sandbags for conscripts versus the smaller one all other factions have?
The smaller sandbags can easilier be placed next to world-objects while the conscript-sandbags require more room around it. No idea what the difference in stats is, but I'd prefer a swap to the smaller sandbags.
Not sure, but I think it has to do with the larger squad size and all models benefiting from cover while not clumping up. |
I have tried using this commander a few times, doesn't always work but it is fun to use.
Started with engi/clown car for capping and protecting against bleed if OKW player rushes my gas which seemingly keeps happening. I attack his kubel/VG but i take too much damage and fall back. Almost lost the car due to bad pathing but stayed alive due to the grace of RNG. Send my penal in to push him back and set a mine down with my other engi.
Get his kubel as it rushes back in after being repaired, kill it off and fight him while decap with clowncar. I noticed he went 2 Sturm and went shreks on both so VG are getting bullied every time we fight. He ends up calling in a puma, kills my clown car but doesnt do much else since I did a LV skip. Called in Shocks and continue to bully his infantry constantly decap either cut off or gas. After building T4, I call in 120 mortar and scares him off in some engagements while softening up other targets. I build T3485 and slow most of his pushes and start to mine side of map while feeling him out since I dont know what commander he has.
I see PF with Shreks which is kind of late at this point but I dont have to worry about skill planes. I eventually get 3 85s and decide to destroy his schwerer while he attack me with his army. My 3 tanks occupy him while I smoke, satchel and Arty his schwerer.
At this point, his only options is rak blob or KT so I try to throw some mines while keeping the pressure on him. I finally get his puma and he throws in the towel. |