I think most saw that the tourney was mostly SOV vs OST, thinking about it don't remember any one winning with another faction. What I found interesting was the announcers kind of repeating what everyone usually states about Penal/Rifleman bleeding to much, sandbags, mainline scaling along with commander choice. I know there probably won't be another patch but would be fun to argue some stuff.
About Rifle/Penal bleed: even with mobile reserves Penals tend to bleed a lot more than soviet faction is designed around. The 2MP is barely noticeable which is why I was thinking make it 4MP. Since Rifleman have similar playstyle and reinforce I would give them similar discount at Major tech.
Grens/PG: I don't really know how to address this since most players like to quickly pump out as many Grens as possible early. Nicko showed that an MG-less opening is a viable strat with the main weakness being bleed so to promote PG I was thinking of making LMG upgrade more expensive since the units playstyle works really well for late game fighting. I don't really want to increase MP cost since their reinforce cost is so high so muni cost might make PG more attractive.
PG: If muni cost isn't enough I was thinking of making G43 upgrade all 4 models, since PG aren't as blobby as PF it shouldn't be as big a problem. For team games it could be a problem but MP cost/Timing/Reinforce/muni cost should put a cap on potential.
Conscripts: The comeback potential despite bad play is a bit much especially with 7-man upgrade. I think also bumping their muni price would be wise. Right now the unit is too cheap for what it gives, say 80 muni also.
Weapon crate: Not really from the tournament but from watching different casted games, SVT conscripts are too good for their cost. The price should also be increased to 80 muni to slow it down. Along with price increase Penal squads should get double DP28 this would make upgrade equally attractive while being fairly expensive.
Sandbags: I think there should be a max of 5 sandbags per player. Sandbags become more tactical and requires micro when max has been reached.
Conscript Assault Package: Give Penals option to upgrade also, concripts get 4/Penal get 6 PPSH. It can open up different commanders such as soviet reserve or advance warfare to Penal starts.
I think with toning down Soviets/Ost it would allow OKW USF a little more play. |
I like most of your ideas like the Conscript/Penal change. It would promote mix and matching instead of pure conscript spam we have now. The only change I would do is instead of flamethrower make the close range PPSH. As a four man squad it won't hit as hard but would probably be easier to balance around merge while keeping the "elites" as better versions of the Penal squad along with better equipment such as smoke/body armor/abilities. Earlier M5 would be welcome but with improved Con/Penal synergy might be a little too much. They would be able to overrun most players with decent play of sand bags with Penal DP28. Overall I think it would be fun as hell to play.
EDIT: I would also keep DP28 squad size to 4, Airborne would then be a large upgrade on durability/long range DPS. If you went with PPSH I would change that to 5 men instead due to change in play style. |
Started playing some 2v2/3v3 again since Penal strats are a little more viable. I have had some off games and good games but overall most have been fun.
Some miscommunication early, asked ally if he wanted SVT drop he said yeah but proceeded to make penals. Rendered weapon drop slightly useless but whatever. After a little misplay early we pushed them back hard and had a wipe or 2. Partner called GG while enemy cursed our scout cars. We had plenty of map control but they slowly pushed us back. Due to my lack of team games my timing and unit composition is a little off so I float MP at various points. OKW pushes me back hard as I am MED tank stalling, I get it out and finally kill it. The game starts to go heavily their way once their tanks come out, we have poor tank play and barely any snares aside from mines. I throw away a few tanks either through ram or being out of position and ally loses his also. Shit is looking bleak and they call GG. Cant fault them, game is looking in the bag but we push on. I finally kill his P4J with a ram which gives me some breathing room. Looking at the replay OKW player was saving up for KT or JT, this let me back in the game. Even though he decided to make tanks instead of waiting it gave me a chance to catch some of his units off guard. I finally was able to steal a RAK which really put in a lot of work for me. 6 man plus retreat is a little broken which helped zone out his tanks while we put pressure back on. OST player seemed to always have MP issues so whenever he lost something it really stung. Near the end I finally see an opening when OKW misplayed P4J and I forced him to retreat with main gun crit, I noticed OST P4 waiting for repairs at top of map so I rush it kill it and run away along side of map while OST panther and ShrekPG chase me down but I get away in time. My ally proceeds to pressure his side of map and OST can keep up with micro and I kill a Shrek squad and steal Shrek. Ost Brummbar is forced back where he thinks it is safe and I take a chance with Rocket run get the kill and we pretty much seal the game as my ally rebuilt his tank force and puts massive pressure on them.
Funny that we both called GG way to early, fun one give it a watch and try not to laugh to hard. |
Saw his name, cursed matchmaking and decided to play my favorite SMG Penals. He made scout car so I made PTRS to destroy it, did decent in Infantry combat but his map control kept me on my back foot and didn't really have muni to call in mg and upgrade units so I never made MG. I did manage to kill his Schwerer so I slowed down his beat down but his micro kept him in control regardless. Had fun hope you guys like it. |
ppsh penals should come at cp1 like they used to and that would make it a worthwhile strat
Yea, would give them a decent time to do some damage before Axis LV hit the field. CP2 is pretty late for a upgrade that does not give smoke/camo/sprint. Camo and sprint I can understand but smoke would at least allow you to close in on MG or long range infantry. Diversion would actually allow the unit to shine in situational engagements. It sucks that they didn't just fix the whole conscript SVT balance. It is literally in almost every casted match. |
Sounds like a sweet ability to put on SMG Penals since they don't have anything to make them worth the muni investment. This along with their VET1 ability along with VET2 cooldown/rec acc/and acc bonus would make SMG a viable upgrade.
For AssG/AssEngi it would probably be better to lock it behind tech or Vet1 since they could take over game extremely early. |
No its not, not in a single way its a good mechanic. Not from pro-players perspective, not from the casual perspective. Abandonment is an example of pure, non-player dependant RNG.
Abandonment either gives one player a second chance when he player wrong or it punishes the player when he player right. Not speaking about situations when abandonment happens in the middle of the map, so it just as good as dead anyway.
But for instance I had games, where I miss player and let enemy dive my rocket arty, instead of being destoyed it got abandoned. Or when I dived to finish the enemy and in process my tank got abandoned.
Not even talking about the frustration aspect, but from a pure army value perspective. Because any tank is a huge boost to your army value and quite big res investment and the fact that one player can essentially get such unit for free based on RNG is just a bad mechanic.
CoH2 is full of RNG, but most of the RNG is predictable. Sure BS sometimes happens, like PIVJ being able to either deflect all shots or being penetrated all the times, but its predictable RNG.
Abandonment on the other hand is like downed plane killing your whole army, because RNG event decided that you need to lose the game, just because. Without your involvement and without any possible counter-play, because its either happens or its not.
Aside from "Wow, lol, cool haha" factor, abandonment has absolutely 0 possitive value.
I agree with everything you said and a possible solution could be ranked and unranked 1v1 since it is creates the largest swing in this mode. Leave the extreme RNG mechanics in the larger modes to keep the flavor and wild memes going. |
Tiger does not have a JP4 to cover it, while IS-2 could have an SU85, if it needs it of course.
Regarding commanders: 1 commander has incendiary, shox, stealth AT and kv8, another has radio intercept, t34-85, insane AI loiter and self repair.
Both commanders are far from bad.
About use cases: I suppose you ignored Storjager's comments and the replay I posted, where panther could do jack vs IS-2.
And about uselessness of spreadsheet: you have to understand where to watch and to what pay attention. Just saying it has little value, because some illusive commanders and unknown use cases does not clarify why IS2 is worse then Tiger. That sounds to me like Ulumu's comment about how Comment has better AI then KT.
Why wouldn’t the tiger have a JP4 to cover it? Or are you only talking about OST. |
You are not fully countering what he said. Your first point about the frag shells combined with a loiter requires specific circumstances when the ISU152 and KV2 can both handle the situation with less micro/overall investment. So the IS2 does not bring something different.
Since the game is not played in a vacuum your 2nd point makes sense however the 2Pak40 and 1 Panther will have an easier time dealing with the IS2 and 2 ZIS especially when vet gets involved and target weakpoint is used.
I understand what your putting out about OST and tiger but none of that applies to OKW which can field a Tiger and KT. Depending on commander OKW can do everything you say and more. Shit overwatch docterine you get AI/AT loiter in one along with the ability to make howitzer and JLI to spot for the abilities. You can use heat shells or even back tracking to your original statement you can equip a Panther with arty call in and force the zis to move while it and the PAK force the IS2 into submission. Hell, the other fusi doctrine has that artillery which can also be used as a breakthrough so its not unique at all to the IS2 doctrine. |
Which is perfectly possible just without this ability. Just let the squad get suppressed, and the others flank the MG. Any good player will try to switch targets to the flanking squads manually. It doesn't matter much if your middle squad is immobile by suppression or hit the dirt. It's immobile, so the defender will switch targets.
You either time the flanking maneuver well enough to make it or not, but this ability does not help.
You're actually taking your own squad out of the fight. Even before it got suppressed, which technically means that you allow the opponent to switch targets earlier than necessary.
They hated him for he spoke the truth.
The ability seems to be geared more for when the enemy has to approach you. You get defensive bonus but cant move so defending instead of assaulting would make sense. However due to being attached to SMG upgrade it has limited window of usefulness. It would probably work best against VG but they can just nade you and wait you out and sturms could just concussive nade and mop up. LMG grens would just look, wonder why, and then move on. |