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Well that is rather sad, I personally tend to avoid Guards because their AT+button just seemed to make everything to easy. I didn't know they were performing so well. Gonk made another comparing different LMG squads vs Obers and Airborne LMG performed the worse. That just seems absurd for the price and muni cost along with lack of utility. The fact that guards were able to win seems to be a really big miss from the balance team, them winning 50% of the time was asinine.
Things like this really do reinforce the perception that specific builds and commanders were favored when balancing the game.
Sorry for rant. |
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I saw a recent video by Gonk where he compared these units and found the Reg Guards to be stronger at long range despite the fact that Airborne on paper have better weapons. (3 SVT/3 DP vs 2 Mosin/2 PTRS/2 DP)
I understand that Guards PTRS are different from penals but in the video he made a statement that their PTRS do full damage behind cover instead of half. Is that true and is that a bug?
It would help explain as to why Guards seem to do so well against everything especially as their PTRS when they miss can still destroy cover.
I know it is to late for balance but it could be easily fixed in a bug patch along with the bren movement bug for UKF. |
I am not talking about specific doctrine with Panzer Tactician (I do not even remember the ones that DO have it).
I am merely defending my philosophical ground on this: it's not fair to consider something "overperforming" and in order to tone it down you decide to selectively and arrogantly increase its muni tax "just bcz omg its so op".
Because, and I say it again, this is a double edged sword. The same case could be made for the Mark Vehicle mechanic (the ONLY reason Guards Coordination is no1 DOCTRINE FOR SOVIETS ACROSS ALL GAME MODES). If you want to go down that route, I propose making Mark Target 240muni against Heavies, 150muni against Mediums and the default 80muni for everything else.
How does that sound? Huh? How about them apples?
I think you need to work on reading comprehension as you are talking about a specific doctrine when it comes to soviet repairs.
Panzer Tactician is available with heavies which opens it up to the cost scaling argument.
I also made the case for Mark Target being another overly cost efficient ability that should be subject to scaling so I like them apples I guess.
Definitely there are some downsides to it.
There will be concessions to make as in the example of the button ability. However, the button ability is definitely not an analogous form of things like Panzer Tactitian or Vehicle Repairs. It only exists on one single unit and the ability is integral to the design of Guards. The cost of Guards can reflect how useful they should be against heavies. It doesn't cover all the bases, but you can tune a couple of knobs very specifically.
That's not the case for abilities that are handed out generally to a wide variety of different units.
While what your saying is true, Button + Mark Target are great in 1v1 but they scale incredibly in larger game modes. Button! cost the same and last the same amount of time no matter what is on the receiving end. It is a great ability from the moment it is available as it allows any mistake to be amplified unless some type of smoke is available. It should cost more vs Heavies or have a shorter active time. None of this is taking into account the performance of guards which I actually want to make a thread about and would like to hear your thoughts. |
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The right doctrine Based is talking about is probably one of the worst doctrines in the game unless you are playing arranged teams and taking advantage with the heaviest of vehicles. Hannibals argument is against an ability that provides greater cost to benefit ratio for more expensive vehicles and said ability is found in multiple doctrines and useful in all game modes. Pretty much your counter argument makes no sense.
As for Hannibals argument, while I agree with it, can cause a slippery slope. The best example would be "Mark Target" as it does the exact same thing. It doesn't provide much against smaller units such as LV upto all 4 shot MED tanks. However once you get to the Panther and heavier it creates a situation where it takes 1 less shot to kill(sometimes 2 depending on tank). With the prevalence of snares it can be quite disproportionate on the value of the ability. The much larger issue is that most doctrines with Mark Target also have Guards who have access to Button. So you get into a situation where abilities synergize a bit to well and we get to where we are now. (Guards doctrines are over picked)
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We had great start, we got blobbed back and slowly forced our way back in the game.
Looking back I messed up by not blobbing back and tried to separate my Penals into teams and got caught out of position. Which they used to double team Katukov which then snowballed into us losing both fuels. IT was looking bleak until Riqqa got double PG wipe in one Katy barrage. That opened up left side of the map which we slowly used to open them up and slowly pick away.
Katukov had Vet3 IS2 with 60+ kills
I had 3 SU85 Vet3 at the end
Riqqa/Katukov planes kept their infantry in check
Axis OKW had me and riqqa messed up with his Sturmtiger rush, I eventually switched to left side since SU85 is fairly clumsy.
Jagdtiger did great job of zoning us out, eventually caught it out of postion and Katukov helped keep me safe while I killed it.
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By the end of the game both brits had 3 land mats each and I recrewed 1 for 7 total. Several drops below 30FPS despite having a decent system(3700x/3070).
I had a bad start lost several units, noticed OKW went SMG VG so started spamming Triple DP Airborne. We dominated them K/D wise but they just did a better job with map control. OST spammed opel truck, which allowed him to get several expensive tanks but once he lost his army to arty he pretty much went tank only. I kept making arty which they made several pushes to get sight and destroy.
Last 2 mins of the game massive tank push by axis and they lost 5 panthers/tiger/KT. |
This is why they should be remade or improved. Literally every other infantry call in ability within the game you wouldn't mind having an extra one or two, wether its Shock Troops, Commandos, Paratroopers, JLI, Fallshirmjagers, every faction can benefit from having extra call in units.
Stormtroopers are not better than the stock option which is the problem. Grenadiers are just too good that you don't need anything else except more grenadiers which is why 4 Grenadiers and Spotting Scopes is basically the current meta for Whermacht. Since Grenadiers are better at anti-infantry and Panzer Grenadiers are better at anti-tank than StormTroopers there is literally no point to Storm Troopers other than a quick 1 time call-in or if you are trying to troll with Close the Pocket.
Not sure about the first part, Shocks and all other Soviet Elites are heavily outshined by reg Guards. Hell with SVT drops elites aren’t even needed. So Soviets don’t really need them unless you are playing Penals. Paratroopers are fairly rare now unless you suffered wipes because they don’t fit in the build and come rather late with horrible target size and Rangers are even rarer due to lack of abilities. I agree with the other faction especially OKW which is mostly due to VG scaling.
With regards to Stormtroopers, I agree Grens are too good for anyone to use anything else. PG are the fastest available Elite unit yet no one uses them unless their build is specifically focused around them. The other issue is a commander with ambush camo gives your mainline a close enough version of what you get with Storms especially if you put it on PG.
What do you think about giving them PG STG, it would make them feel more like an elite unit but maintaining their assaulting style. 4 STG might be to strong on spawn so maybe 2stg come equipped while the other 2 are a free upgrade but take some time to tech. |
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GG, Brit made it harder than it had to be. You guys probably could have closed out at 30 min mark. He was hoarding MP and GAS for whatever reason. |
I disagree with the notion of Penals not being "honorable", from what I have gathered there were two types of "Penal" units; well-armed and professional NCOs that are given a second chance to serve and earn their freedom through blood, and "tramplers"-poorly armed and trained infantry meant to clear minefields and other suicidal duties.
Penals in COH2 seem to be the former since they are better armed and professional soldiers, willing to lay down their lives so that their debts to the USSR are paid back in blood.That seems honorable to me.
Regarding veterancy, the most important veterancy bonuses for Grens/Obers arrive at Vet2 instead of them being spread out you get a flat 40% accuracy bonus that completely turn most engagements on their head.This is partially why SOV struggles midgame due to no weapon upgrades available at that time (except DP28 for guards).
Either the effect of To The Last Man should be strengthened by 2% for each bonus, or Penals should receive better moving accuracy with vet, seeing as how they aren't winning long range vs axis inf
I feel most issues with LMG squads for all factions is caused by focus fire. On paper at max range, Penals should do fairly well against LMG Grens. But the LMG focus fire will cause models to drop faster than they should creating a larger disparity in performance than one would think from looking at the data. Truthfully I feel Penals perform fine offensively, it is their inability to create cover to help mitigate model drop speed which causes their poor performance. Since most don't want more units to lay sand bags the easiest fix would be to remove focus fire and work from there. |
If I was to redesign OKW, I would move Stuka into Schwerer Panzer HQ, then give it a fuel decrease like 10 fuel or give it back some cooldown reduction on its Vet.
Then I would add SdKfz 250 Infantry Halftrack
and Mortar Halftrack into the Mechanized HQ. This would allow Mechanized to be on par with Battlegroup HQ (Healing Building) since you would have a way to gain reinforcement on the field and an alternative to the leIG.
Then Luchs/Puma would be available as upgrade in the Main HQ once either Battlegroup or Mechanized HQ is fully upgraded serving as a in between before Schwerer Panzer HQ.
The 250 would require some tech cost reworking to make sense. If it comes to early USF would become pointless as a Sturm in the halftrack could melt the rifleman before snares are even available. The M20 would only be reliable from the rear and bazooka on LT would be mandatory.
If it comes to late it would be a pain to get the 250 to VET1 so that it could reinforce. I think OPEL blitz truck would be a bit better, it could heal 2 units while inside and provide forward reinforce while easier to balance due to lack of combat abilities. IT would make PF and JLI even harder to deal with on a regular basis so maybe a slower reinforce compared to base or Battlegroup. |
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