This is also not correct. The UC is very threatening to the 221, especially when you can't make use of 221 mobility if the UC is supported. An upgraded UC will completely demolish a 221, and same for any other micro light that is upgraded or supported. The 221 has superior mobility to those vehicles, but its the prey and not the hunter, so it's rather easy to deny the use of the offensive capabilities of the 221 without making dedicated at investments. WC51 is very hot, is actually the most popular USF doctrine, which is why it's getting nerfs in this patch, and the wc also counters the 221
So what do we have with 221? High mobility, high vision, very early timing, one of the best anti-infantry DPS during its timing and slightly beyond that (UC is pretty good, I agree, but faction is in a bad shape imo) and ability to get double resource gain from any resource points for 15 fuel + 85 range vehicle maphack.
Yes, the penetration is pretty bad on its mg, but everything else is pretty good for its timing. I think you are making a mistake comparing 223 vs m20, because you don't build 223 at that timing, it is pretty pointless doing it, imo. You get 221 first and then, if it survives, you decide you want that extra HP and utility out of it or not. |
Didn't know TDs were following light vehicle logic. Anyway you probably forget the initial statement which was making the M10 a mini Jackson and Jackson dedicated heavy tank destroyer, so yes in that case you'll be ending needing more than 1 m10 if your opponent is getting various Pz4s and since both axis factions can also complement them with a panther or a tiger/kingtiger you're ending fighting 3 tanks that can definitively fight off your own M10s but also infantry and the later being vastly superior to your m10.
UKF not using their own version while already be in this configuration with the Firefly should ring a bell.
I don't see how p4 can fight off M10, when m10 is faster and has more range and 1 is more then enough, especially when you have an AT gun. As the match goes on, of course m10 is pointless, regardless of a buff. Also I did not make any suggestions about balancing Jackson.
Didn't know TDs were following light vehicle logic.
Most TDs do not, this does, because of 50 range tigers and a panther.
UKF not using their own version while already be in this configuration with the Firefly should ring a bell.
That rings only 1 bell, and it is the same bell as with USF - it is a gimmick TD, that does not perform well at all.
Imma head out, this is getting quite toxic |
But you need it for the 223, which is the vehicle that should be compared to the m20
Haha, that is embarrassing, haven't played OKW for a long time, kind of forgot about it (oops).
Still pintle mg has higher ~40% more dps then m20's, although the range is smaller (35 vs 40). From my perspective it is way easier to get value out of it then from m20, since 221 can do whatever for quite a bit of time without threatening opposition. UC is unreliable vs 221, clown car can be problematic with a squad inside, but manageable and wc51 is not that hot anymore.
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How do you get an M36 if you're already popcap full with 2 M10? Where do you get the manpower or fuel from?
Also the most important question, while your opponent is getting units that can both damage your infantry and tanks alike, you're investing a lot of manpower and fuel into units that can only damage pz4 tanks and need to be replaced once a tiger/panther hit the field.
Why would I build 2 M10s? I'd rather have 1 sherman and 1 M10. 2 M10s is pretty pointless tbh.
Also the most important question, while your opponent is getting units that can both damage your infantry and tanks alike, you're investing a lot of manpower and fuel into units that can only damage pz4 tanks and need to be replaced once a tiger/panther hit the field.
If this logic was true, building light vehicles and light tanks would have been pointless, because they are really hard to operate once medium armor hit the field. |
USF starts with 10 fuel more
Mechanized is 60 fuel, Battlegroup is 45 fuel while any usf tech path is 55 fuel
Yes, but not 223, which arrives exactly at the same time m20 arrives
221 is outdps'd by tier 0 scout cars despite not being tier 0 and being the most expensive micro light with a 15 fuel cost
You don't need Battlegroup for 221, you need supply truck for it, not fully deployed Headquarters. Pretty much it is available to build with incendiary nade on Volks.
10 starting fuel, 15F for truck and another 15f for 221. So that is 5f + 15f + 15f for 223 upgrade (optional).
USF starts with 20f. 35f for Lt + 20f for tech + 20f for M20. So that is 15f + 20f + 20f = 55f for M20 vs 5f + 15f = 20f for 221. You can even have sdkfz 223 20f earlier then M20.
If 221 was available with HQ it would have been completely pointless, because it would be a soviet m3 clowncar class of vehicle with sdkfz 222 timing |
I'm not saying M10 wouldn't be decent vs Pz4, I'm saying that your 2 M10 suddenly become a burden once a tiger/panther hits the field and you crying with your investment and pop cap that can't do shit vs it unless your opponent gave you the adecquat veterancy boost for it.
Because of this exact reason its penetration can be safely buffed. If you want to fight panthers and tigers - get an m36. |
I think it would be nice if t34-85 had some sort of projectile AP shell like Pershing has with pen around 260, 160~200 dmg ~30 muni. Fits unit very well, since it has 85mm cannon. |
The 223 combat value is lower than the M20, while the timing, health and armor are identical.
pull up the numbers with starting recourses and tech pls. Also this is very misleading since 221 has faster timing... |
I see the intent here. This may work, and I think that veterancy should be looked at, but I think there's a design issue within the unit.
See, when you get the 221, you get the chance to upgrade it for 15 more fuel to a 223.
You get additional armor, health signal relay and lockdown mode. The problem is that when you upgrade it to a 223 you spend quite a lot of fuel because of the chance to have the car double any sector income. This is a disincentive to using it as combat unit, because the unit doesn't have enough dps potency to pay back the resource increase it would grant by sitting in a sector.
What I proposed is to split the upgrade in 2. The first one, the radio set, costs 5 fuel and grants the armor and health bonus, as well as radio relay. The second, call it "logistic car" for example, would cost 10 fuel, is a further upgrade that adds the lockdown ability. This would allow who wants to use the 221/223 offensively and try to reach Riegel mines a chance to do so without fully paying an exorbitant price. 20 fuel for a 223 without lockdown mode after the first truck set up would keep it in line for timing and cost with similar light vehicles, the m20 for example.
The 221 upgrade pays for itself in 2 minutes (if locked down on a fuel point) and in slightly more then 4 minutes you can get your worth from 221. 5 fuel is way too low. Also such units with similar timing have very short lifespan, so having access to this sort of upgrade is pretty neat. So if you don't like the upgrade - don't spend your resources on it. Also the unit is fine. Great scouting vehicle and provides a decent power spike in already a pretty good doctrine.
Elite Armored is the only doctrine that can make out of KT a meta heavy tank and a good tank destroyer out of JP4. Having 65 sight (not focused, like su-85) on heavy tank (with spearhead) + heat shells that deal 312 dmg is nothing to sneeze at. |
Making the M10 a mini Jacksons is just leading to failure, you're not building a tank destroyer only to counter Pz4 as USF, you can't that's a non sense. Not vs 2 factions that can easily build each 2 Pz4 into Tiger/KT/panther.
If m10 was a mini jackson, then 80 fuel to create a lot of problems for p4 is a decent investment. Keep in mind that sherman + m10 is 190f. That is almost the price of a single panther. |