My experiences so far (2v2), I think this map only requires a few tweaks.
The right hand side VP needs its pathing fixed its seems to auto route the south pawn to the north entry point every time.
Both fuel points need to be brought back towards the middle slightly. The right side is not too bad, but the left side feels too far away to even bother trying to harass it from south spawn.
De-clutter the shot blockers, i.e Walls, bush, ditches and choke points around both fuel points. It's far too easy to just lock them down with an MG and few well placed demos, mines etc. Also consider how easy it currently is to just add a few extra strands of barbed wire to completely lock them off.
The map is slightly too wide, but this is touched on earlier.
Remove the houses around the middle. There's no need for two each, maybe put one big house to contest, but that's it. Many houses does not make for good game play around the middle, the fringes of maps are a better location for houses. Alternatively, you could possibly put in some trenches instead. At a minimum the disparity between the quality of houses needs to be fixed, the south spawn has a huge 2 story house with lots of windows when compare with north spawn which has two mediocre houses, one which is a useless wooden death trap and the other a single story house in a pretty useless position. Think about the houses and what you are trying to achieve by putting them there, at the moment they seem to be there for no purpose, especially the north houses.
The left side fuel point needs some work regarding the terrain. The left side design seems rushed and unfinished when compared to the right side. Remove the raised ground with bunkers and ditches and replace it with a house with a farm or something like that. Something that can be contested and fought over needs to go there. As it stands the left side fuel is a freebie for whichever side decides to capture it first, good luck defending it, as it's pretty much unable to be defended in it's current state.
I really think the V shaped walls at the tip of the right side fuel near the munis point needs to be removed and replaced with something like a small fence or a ditch. It's just provides too much of a choke point. I like the look of the mud walls/bombed out buildings, but they really serve no purpose. I think it possible they need to be scaled back. Put one or two small bombed out buildings, but the extent that you have gone to has made the whole area very hard to assault from the North, and easy as pie to defend from the South.
The left side cut off is far more hard to get to and cut off when compared with the right side. THe left side has a fence blocking it and tree lines to go around, where as the right side can simply be cut off by walking down and the road and going into the point and capping it. My point is the left side is a lot easier to defend then the right side. One mine on the north side of the fence to kill the entire squad vaulting the fence is all that is needed on the left side.
Happy to discuss this over TS at anytime. |
My experiences so far (2v2), I think this map only requires a few tweaks.
The right hand side VP needs its pathing fixed its seems to auto route the south pawn to the north entry point every time.
Both fuel points need to be brought back towards the middle slightly. The right side is not too bad, but the left side feels too far away to even bother trying to harass it from south spawn.
De-clutter the shot blockers, i.e Walls, bush, ditches and choke points around both fuel points. It's far too easy to just lock them down with an MG and few well placed demos, mines etc. Also consider how easy it currently is to just add a few extra strands of barbed wire to completely lock them off.
The map is slightly too wide, but this is touched on earlier.
Remove the houses around the middle. There's no need for two each, maybe put one big house to contest, but that's it. Many houses does not make for good game play around the middle, the fringes of maps are a better location for houses. Alternatively, you could possibly put in some trenches instead. At a minimum the disparity between the quality of houses needs to be fixed, the south spawn has a huge 2 story house with lots of windows when compare with north spawn which has two mediocre houses, one which is a useless wooden death trap and the other a single story house in a pretty useless position. Think about the houses and what you are trying to achieve by putting them there, at the moment they seem to be there for no purpose, especially the north houses.
The left side fuel point needs some work regarding the terrain. The left side design seems rushed and unfinished when compared to the right side. Remove the raised ground with bunkers and ditches and replace it with a house with a farm or something like that. Something that can be contested and fought over needs to go there. As it stands the left side fuel is a freebie for whichever side decides to capture it first, good luck defending it, as it's pretty much unable to be defended in it's current state.
I really think the V shaped walls at the tip of the right side fuel near the munis point needs to be removed and replaced with something like a small fence or a ditch. It's just provides too much of a choke point. I like the look of the mud walls/bombed out buildings, but they really serve no purpose. I think it possible they need to be scaled back. Put one or two small bombed out buildings, but the extent that you have gone to has made the whole area very hard to assault from the North, and easy as pie to defend from the South.
The left side cut off is far more hard to get to and cut off when compared with the right side. THe left side has a fence blocking it and tree lines to go around, where as the right side can simply be cut off by walking down and the road and going into the point and capping it. My point is the left side is a lot easier to defend then the right side. One mine on the north side of the fence to kill the entire squad vaulting the fence is all that is needed on the left side.
Happy to discuss this over TS at anytime. |
so you would have extended vision Pios, maybe with flamers,2 MGs, and two grenadiers vs four rifles and maybe an officer with RE. Is that really as impossible as you're making it out to be?
Cookiez, I don't mean to be rude but trying to defend USF early vs Ostheer is ridiculous. Yeah, going two MG's start is high risk high reward but as decent USF player will just come at you from 3-4 directions and flank and force you to retreat. THATS the problem, Ost can not afford to be pushed off the map by USF at all, due to their high teching costs by comparison.
It's easy to say, use and MG, spot for it with Pios, defend it with Grens and you're okay. Yeah, in some situations you can do that, but it's very map dependant and based on luck that your Grens get a few crits on the rifles before they close in and rape your face.
It's too easy for USF to flank from 4 directions and completely push you off, which is good play from the USF, but due to design with Ostheer Tech, they can't come back from that. Also, trying to push out from your base with Ost after being pushed off is nowhere near as easy as it was for Wehrmacht in vCoH, which I think sometimes you are still imagining your'e talking about instead of Ostheer.
BTW, current strength of factions is as follows:
Soviets
USF
OKW
Ostheer
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Yes I just lost to this in a 1v1 on Ango.
This has to be fixed.
Soviets can now get away with building nothing except for Cons and Guards until call ins now. Especially on Ango vs Ostheer as it's not as if Ostheer can spread out, cap and harass like Sovs do, if they do they will get destroyed.
The game I played was just constant, decapping eachothers cut offs, harrassing the fuel until he had enough CP for T34 85 call in?
I do not believe this player was a better player then me, I believe I could easily beat this player using Sovs and the tactics he used 10/10 times.
There's no way that Relic intended the PTRS to be this way. Why don't they fix it? Either that or everyone will just play OKW and abuse PTRS on Sovs themselves?
This isn't so much of a problem in 2v2 with OKW and Ostheer, but 1v1 is purely and totally broken.
How can Sov's get away with just spamming 6-7 cons and 4-5 Guards????
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This, my dear, equally applies to the many axis fanboy forum warriors already crying so butthurt just from reading the patchnotes and theorycrafting...
Everyone seems to be so brilliant at this game that they immediately grasp all the changes that will come to the meta, before having even played it.
People should just play the game with the new patch, enjoy the new (old) maps and stop dramatizing beforehand, thank you.
This. |
Another issue which have a root at OKW.
You can't nerf USF, because they will be broken UP against OKW.
You can't buff Ost, because it will overpower soviets.
And both WFA armies having teching cheaper then a bag of dog food isn't helping here at all too.
You need to nerf OKW first, then you'll be able to adjust USF.
Yeah but if you nerf OKW and then adjust USF, that would take at least 2 patches. There's no way that the incompetent fools that are currently balancing this game would ever get it right in 2 patches.
I think the first they should try and test is simply giving Ostheer their T1 building to start with or increasing it's build time ten fold so it can be built in an instant. Then give them an extra 240 mp to allow them to build an extra grenadier to keep up with the USF unit count.
Then Sov could be given extra manpower to match this early, and maybe also a speed increase in building T1 or T2. |
They won't change it. Keep on dreaming, Relic will not change it. Why would they? People keep playing even after they complain and show tears on forums. Changing the USF teching system will take time and some serious code crunching, which would take effort, something Relic does not seriously like.
Another example of this was the cries and tears about the call in system. People wanted, for example, the t34-85 call-in to be able to give an option as to upgrade to the t34-85 model in the tankovi battalion, much like the old sherman gun upgrade in VCOH. Relic said they wanted to implement it, but: 'it had some problems, they couldn't figure it out'. In other words, nah were good, lets keep it this way, this is more convenient.
Stop assuming they are out there to provide you with balance and pleasure. They sell a product, a product which seems to go to free to play status very soon (assuming the signs are read correctly). Which will defy what the product was and is for which many people put down 50-60 dollars or euros. They introduced all the extra campaigns, skinns, commanders and the extra two armies for the essence of squeezing out more money before this game will eventually die out.
It is a product, not a service, how much we want it to be, it will never be a service. Relic wants money, nothing more.
Did you take some negative pills this morning or something? Geez dude seriously, calm down. |
I would like to discuss suggestions on the early game balance between USF and Ost. 1v1 and 2v2.
I'm assuming a couple of things:
1) There is a problem with balance in this area
2) Rifles outperform Grenadiers throughout the game, when considering upgrades and vanilla
3) USF ability to always stay a unit ahead of Ost early game (1 extra unit) due to not having to build etc
4) There is a problem with M20 and how early it arrives when compared to Ost teching costs and time it takes to field a Pak, when also considering point 1,2,3.
I would also like to discuss suggestions on how it can be fixed without making Rifleman nigh on useless, so please consider how nerfs/buffs to fix USF vs Ost may effect USF vs OKW, Sov vs Ost etc. I don't think nerfing Rifleman is a viable suggestion, as they are in a bad spot vs Obers etc late mid/late game as it currently stands.
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High level players absolutely know the ins and outs of the game better than lower level players.
However, I am much more annoyed by people purposefully warping discussion due to faction blindness than I am by the inexperienced people thinking they know everything. The latter group has some excuse; the former, none.
That's pretty much what the majority of forum users who frequent the balance forums do. There is one person in particular that is so blind by their favourite faction that they have almost 4000 posts which intentionally warp balance discussions to suit their own agenda.
That is the reason why balance discussions on here are pretty much good for nothing except identifying the hard cord fanboys who will say or do anything to help their faction not get nerfed or get buffed. |
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