Profile of GreenDevil

Jump back to quoted post18 Nov 2014, 10:05 AMJohnnyB

Well first, you didn't say what armies you play. Is it dual ostheer? Is it ostheer + okw? Is it dual okw?

Soviets can usualy lock the frontline with maxim spam + all infantry types and mortars (prefeably 120) + several zis and even su-85s. If they play as a team, this strat is even more dangerous because it can be put in place realy well. Currently dual soviets are the best combo Allies can get.

Well, first you have to break that frontline of ZIS maxim and mortars. The best tool for that is the wurframen. As ostheer you have the mortar ht and recentlyeven the common mortars which are currently verry good. They want a positional game? Give them a a positional game, but with better tools. It's more easy than trying to break the frontline with head-ons or flank attacks. For that you need perfect micro and coordination while success is not assured.

As OKW, if you see that, don't chose your doc to early. You may need a Jagdtiger later, if they have ISU doctrines at loadout. If T34/85's you can reply with panthers but if you manage to build KT it's 60% a won game.
Tough late game armor will be delayed though (unless your partner is ostheer and works hard to give ou fuel) because for an intensive maxim+zis+mortar combo, you will need to build 2 wurframens. One will not suffise.

If ostheer, unless you use mortar hts (because your partner is responsible for that or for wurframens) those comming in 2 doctrines from which just one deserves your attention - spearhead, I would suggest Jager Armor doctrine, Elite troops doctrine. If they going on T34/85 hard, use lightning war. You will have the Tiger and the infamous Stuka ground attack which will simply eat their armor for dinner.

For what you described I guess that dual okw would be the best bet (because of wurframens) but they could quickly adapt their gameplay and try to storm you with a middle armor flood. If they do that, and you spent your fuel on wurframens, you are toasted.

Make sure you garrison important buildings before he does. That's important.

All in all it's about who outplays whom. Me and my AT partner succeded to beat this strategy by simply outplaying them in startgame with combined front and flanking attacks. But I guess that was possible just against weaker teams than us.

Hope this helped.

Jump back to quoted post13 Nov 2014, 10:43 AMKatitof

Hey mr. butthurtdevil, ever played as soviets?

The game is all about doctrinal counters for non doctrinal situations for allies, it doesn't matter what devs say on the matter, because its not even close to reality(meta), its not end of the world that there is one or two instances where axis need that too.

So, GTFO GreenDevil, random idiot.

Jump back to quoted post12 Nov 2014, 18:02 PMThe Silver Sage

I've noticed that there seems to be quite a disparity in terms of infantry based anti-tank capabilities between the Allied and Axis factions. A lot of people have commented on the difficulties Allied players have when trying to take down Axis vehicles late game.

Now people talk about paks/zis/raketenwerfer/57 mm at gun this at gun that but I think the real problem is the huge usefulness of the ubiquitous panzerschreck (at least on OST side I have no problem with PG having this but for a core cheap infantry in the form of volks (OKW) it is turning the tank battle way in favour of axis by having 1 or 2 squads hanging around).

For those not interested in numbers the TLDR version of this is Axis infantry can scare off or kill Allied vehicles much more easily than Allied infantry can do the same to Axis tanks. I believe this is due to the panzerschreck performing as it does at long range.

So lets look at the statistics of the Panzerschreck vs. the Bazooka (taken from Coh2stats if these are wrong please correct me).

Panzerschreck penetration: 180/170/160 Damage: 120 Cost: 120 for 2 (OST), 90 for 1 (OKW)

Bazooka penetration: 130/120/110 Damage: 80 Cost: 60

We will be using the long range penetration value as I feel this is where the problem stems from.

List goes as follows: Unit name: front armour/rear armour, hit-points, Minimum hits to kill, chance to penetrate, average amount of hits to kill (Penetration+damage value vs. Armour+ hit-points)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Panzerschreck vs Allied vehicles

Soviet vehicles;
Non-doc
Katyusha: 7/5, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
M3: 5.4/4.2, HP:200, minimum 2 hits to kill , 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
t70: 70/35, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
M5: 28.5/20, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
su76: 70/35, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
Su85: 140/70, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
t34/76: 150/75, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill

Something of note as to why I believe Soviets rely on call-in vehicles so much, even from furthest range all non-doc Soviet vehicles will always be penetrated by panzerschreck. Now lets look at doctrinal vehicles

Doctrinal
Soviet Sherman: 160/80, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill
t34/85: 160/80, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 7 hits to kill
kv8: 240/145, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 67% penetration, average 11 hits to kill
kv1: 270/165, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 59% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
kv2: 300/180, HP:800, minimum 7 hits to kill, 53% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
isu 152: 310/155, HP:1040, minimum 9 hits to kill, 52% penetration, average 17 hits to kill
is2: 375/205, HP:1040, minimum 9 hits to kill, 43% penetration, average 21 hits to kill

So as you can see it is only doctrinal Soviet tanks that can even deflect a panzerschreck round from long range i.e. 160 penetration. I think this has a lot to do with why Soviets find non-doctrinal tanks so lacking.

Now lets look at the USF

USF vehicles;
Non-doc
Ambulance: 4/1.8, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
m20: 16/11, HP:240, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
AA halftrack: 15/10, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m21 mortar: 20/8.4, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m5 stuart: 80/50, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m8 scott: 70/50, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m36: 130/60, HP:480, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
m4 sherman: 160/80, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 6 hits to kill

Again all USF non-doc Vehicles are 100% penetrated at long range. Late game this really shows as USF and I believe this may contribute to their late game problems.

Doctrinal
Dodge: 5.2/4, HP:180, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
Greyhound: 28.5/14.25, HP:240, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
Priest: 60/30, HP:320, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
m10: 120/57.5, HP:400, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Sherman bulldozer: 200/80, HP:720, 6 hits to kill, 80% penetration, average 8 shots to kill
Easy8: 215/95, HP:640, minimum 6 hits to kill, 74% penetration, average 9 hits to kill


Only Easy-8 and Bulldozer Sherman can deflect panzershcreck from long range, only 2 vehicles doctrinal/non-doctrinal included.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now lets look at bazooka vs. the Axis

Bazooka vs. Axis vehicles

OST
Non-doc
Panzerwerfer: 20/10, HP:160, minimum 2 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 2 hits to kill
222: 9/4.5, HP:200, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
251: 9/4.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Stug III G: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 79% penetration, average 7 hits to kill
Ostwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Panzer IV: 180/90, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 61% penetration, average 14 hits to kill
Brummbar: 260/105, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 42% penetration, average 24 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 35% penetration, average 29 hits to kill

So you can see bazookas can deal with light vehicles well and medium vehicles to a much lesser extent.

Doctrinal
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Stug III E: 140/70, HP:400, minimum 5 hits, penetration 79%, average 7 hits to kill
Tiger: 300/180, HP:1040, minimum 13 hits to kill, 37% penetration, average 36 hits to kill
Tiger ace: 300/180, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 37% penetration, average 44 hits to kill
Elefant: 400/150, HP:1040, minimum 13 hits to kill, 27.5% penetration, average 48 hits to kill

And last but not least the OKW

OKW
non-doc
Kubel: 4/2, HP:190, minimum 3 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 3 hits to kill
Flak halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Stuka: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
IR halftrack: 11/5.5, HP:320, minimum 4 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 4 hits to kill
Panzer 2 Luchs: 55/35, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Puma: 25/12.5, HP:400, minimum 5 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 5 hits to kill
Jagdpanzer IV: 230/80, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 48% penetration, average 17 hits to kill
Panther: 320/110, HP:800, minimum 10 hits to kill, 35% penetration, average 29 hits to kill
Sturmtiger: 220/110, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 50% penetration, average 32 hits to kill
King tiger: 425/225, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits, 26% penetration, average 62 hits to kill

Doctrinal
OStwind: 110/55, HP:640, minimum 8 hits to kill, 100% penetration, average 8 hits to kill
Jagdtiger: 525/150, HP:1280, minimum 16 hits to kill, 21% penetration, average 77 hits to kill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Funny comparison
t70, su76, USF AA halftrack, stuart, scott and priest 3 hits to kill from schreck vs. Kubel 3 hits to kill
with bazooka. (Greyhound takes 2....)


In summary I think the long range values of the panzerschreck (Damage 120, Penetration: 160), give the Axis (more so OKW) too much of an advantage in the late game. All Soviet non-doctrinal vehicles and all but 2 of the USF vehicles will be 100% penetrated at max range, this may play a part as to why Soviet gameplay is dominated by call-ins (as well as the fuel disparity between call-ins and tier built tanks

Jump back to quoted post5 Nov 2014, 14:21 PMKatitof

OKW have extremely potent repairs without giving anything up for it and on top of that, free repair station on cheapest in game tier building unlike all other armies which have no such convinience, you might want to attempt to compare it to USF, but they don't have super heavy armor they could bring up to full health in no time.