I see no problems with Wehr at the moment, In fact I think Wehr is top 1 or 2 imo. Extremely well rounded faction with good mainline that scales better than anyone on the forum wants to give them credit for. Their stock mediums are great these days, especially with the brummy being the beast of burden it is. And the cherry on top is a fantastic selection of commanders that can fill any weaknesses you have or compound any strengths you have. Brits/USF are the factions to look at imo.
I think we share different definitions of good and great.
just 'cos you made me question what I was seeing I decided to watch Treadz who unleashed a clown car of a 6 cons opening 'cos fuck it, and they rolled over JibberJabber who, even after stealing an abandoned T34 couldn't take more than 60 points off them, 25 mins, GG...
Redemption came against Finndeed who blundered 2 Kv1's against mines, but it didn't look easy, 2x ZiS and Maxim and the position was probably still equal, despite a great early game adv provided by not countering the FlameHT and a decent use of the MortarHT smoke.
If they had more options, not even necessarily as potent as the Flame HT, it would go a long way to making the faction more fun to play and I suspect more balanced. 'cos right now...
Ost are an embarrassment, I challenge you to watch any game in the spectate menu where this infantry that scales so well, even at Vet3 in the mid/end game isn't getting deleted en masse by the allies, leaving a player with their pants over their heads.
The Ostwind is great, but you can only get it if you're ahead. The PiV can
out duel a 34/76, possibly a Cromwell, with skill but it isn't a sure thing AND you NEED it as a potential power spike to regain SOME of the map you lost in the opening 15 minutes, but it struggles if there is ANY AT threat on the field and gets dumped on by a M4A3.
Everyone is using Jaeger Infantry and losing, Spearhead and losing, Strategic Reserves and losing. (there was a reason we gave them the PiVJ and Winfantry, the armor and infantry couldn't stand alone) Call in openings are long gone, doctrines don't matter if the core of your army folds like a cheap tent.
My suggestions are, in the true fashion of being a balance forum warrior, extreme!
By 1943-44 the Wehrmacht in the east is mainly a defensive force trying their best not to be encircled. Their units (if they survive) should be durable with their support weapons or armor providing most of the killing power.
So, I say fuck it, overhaul the unit the veterancy, remove every offensive veterancy bonus if we have to, I don’t care if the core infantry fight like Ostruppen; replace those bonuses with something that allows their 4 man squads and the weak mid-war armor to actually survive if by some miracle they reach Vet2/3. It’s possible to win games positionally and strategically by constricting your opponent, not outright killing them, perhaps a thematic/doctrinal shift, Festung Europa, the Dnieper line, this could be a new way to look at the faction.
Short of giving the Ostheer a 300 point VP advantage to start with, I personally think this approach if tuned properly addresses many of these issues. If they could actually stay on the field for more than 5 minutes, maybe they could actually generate the resources they need to deploy the units that are functional. If it's an l2p issue about being more defensive and positionally aware then you do playing the other factions then make it fun/easier to do so.
But OK, I realise the balance team are restricted to making small incremental changes; so operating in the realm of minor fiction instead of complete fantasy, perhaps there are other changes we can make:
Let’s start with the PaK gun and Mg42: these units are necessary to meet the threats presented by the allies and they do a damn fine job at it, but if you lose even one in the mid game, your game is over. There’s very little winning chances afterwards, no alternatives, and that isn’t fun. So, I might consider giving the Mg42 grenadier rifles. Particularly with the new formation changes there are many instances, particularly around corners, where the crew will actually advance and die while the MG sets up. In the early game if the Mg42 is routed, not even necessarily lost, the Ostheer will struggle to get back into the game. If we give the actual squad members marginally more fighting ability, 5-10% more damage than they already do, that makes the counter attack, (which will usually be uphill against a fortified **cons in sandbags cough** position) that much more likely to be successful, or at least the chance at retaking the ground in a more timely fashion, more likely.
I would make the same argument for the PaK gun, it needs to be either more durable or more readily available/cheaper, but OK, if we aren’t willing to make these less punishing if lost, then the soft counters need to be made more viable:
I would like to see the StuG improved, 4 hits to destroy a T70 is prohibitively poor; if it needs to perform like an SU85 in vision mode: poor rotation + acceleration, with an emphasis on positioning, like the tank destroyer they're supposed to be, so it isn’t chasing light armor across the map, then that’s fine but the StuG needs to be more credible.
Speaking about StuG’s I would also like to see the StuG-E reverted. It’s a joke. It’s worse than a mortar half track. Move it to T3 and buff it so AT LEAST it becomes a deterrent against things like Stuarts, T70’s and perhaps tone down it’s RoF or otherwise the AI capability to something akin to the 222/M20.
Move the Puma to T2 and balance it to fight armor about equally as well as a Stuart.
or fuck it make the Pak43 viable, maybe that gives us enough field presence in the mid game until a Katy/Calli rocks up.
This would allow some other doctrines a bit more play time, players could decide which alternative they would like to use to meet the allied threat.
Infantry wise I think the reason we’re seeing so many Jager squads is that the Ost need a combat squad that isn’t ridiculous and can be relied upon. I propose giving PzGrens 5 men and Kar98’s with an option to go StG’s at T4, something resembling guards-, and perhaps reverting the VSL changes but make the vet bonuses defensive, and/or make the upgrade Vet2 dependent. Vet squad leaders require a vet squad, makes sense.
I would also like to see the 250 more viable as an equivalent early game shock unit, allow it to hit the field earlier, and give the Ostheer something like the flame bus that they could maybe put PzGrens in (my go to shock unit atm) or if that’s a non-starter for gods sakes make it’s MG42 worth a damn; remember when the Kubel could supress? No, maybe that doesn’t need to be done, but it could fulfill a similar role, exchanging HP/Dmg instead of MP bleed, pushing it forward to help your grens fight against infantry in directional cover.
OR when we think, “grens are better at long range!” when you’re fighting over a point it’s not often you can actually find cover at that range; if the 250 and 251 provided heavy/vehicle cover that could be an interesting way of improving durability, requiring some level of skill. This combined with reinforcement perhaps gives Ostheer the field presence they need, and if they survive, maybe late game durability, (consider adding a defensive aura at vet 2/3)
These are some of my suggestions, feel free to shit on them, discuss or whatever happens these days, but please don't tell me that the Ostheer are fine.
Alright, here goes, my first balance thread also known as my coming out as a wehraboo or whatever.
I haven’t seen Ostheer get shit on this badly since snipers were allowed in scout cars, or perhaps since 2016 where the only reliable opening was delaying with PaK's until a Tiger could bail you out. Something has to be done,
so instead of that, I'm going to post about it.
In the interests of being thorough I didn't think that just my own experience in playing and coaching recently would be sufficient to make my argument so, again 'cos I'm old and harken back to the good old days
, I tried to do my best SiphonX impression by tabulating top games that I spectated over the weekend.
- Players must be evenly rated and rated in the top 150
- I only reviewed one game from the same player
Here was the outcome:
|Jager Infantry → Default|
|Urban Defense → 4 Scripts|
|Festung Armor → Default → 666 Variation|
|Recon Support → M20 → Stuart|
|Spearhead → Default→ Double Pak / Mortar HT|
|Guard Motor → Flame Car → Guards → Maxim??|
|Spearhead → Default|
|Guard Motor → Flame Car → 2x Scripts/Guards|
|No Cmd → 3/2 Opening|
|Guard Motor→ 4 Scripts|
|Crushed (Early-ish Resigns)|
|No Cmd → 3/2 Opening 444 Variation|
|No Cmd Lt. M20 → Cpt.|
|Crushed (Early Resigns)|
|Spearhead → Default → Mortar HT → Double PaK|
|AB → 50. → Stuart|
|Played well, could not overcome the triple cap or triple Sherman, VP line says Crushed|
|Jager Infantry → Double Pio/42 into PzGrens|
|Mobile Assault → 3 IS/UC|
|Incredible win, use of camouflage and mines was impeccable|
|Storm Docrtine?? → 2/2 → PzGrens??|
|Heavy Cav → Double RE|
|Shocked that this was a Top 100 game, both sides played like ass. Wish I could unsee this. Also, Crushed.|
|Jager Infantry → Default|
|Recon Support → M20 → Stuart → Mortar?|
|Mill Road West|
|Outplayed fairly badly but an awkward USF build allowed them the keep the points close, resigned after losing PiV|
|No Cmd → Transposed into 3/2 + Mortar|
|Lend Lease → Double Ass IS / Mortar|
|I thought an equal game where Ost resigned possibly early after losing 2 squads|
|Jager Infantry → Default / Sniper Variation|
|Lend Lease → 4 IS / Bolster → M5/M10|
|Great win, managed to base pin their opponent in focusing in the south.|
|Jager Infantry → Default|
|Commandos → 4 IS / Mills → 2x Commandos (??)|
|Solid win against a suspicious opening|
|Jager Armor → Default → +1 Gren +PzGren → T4 variation|
|Armored Assault T2 → IS2 Variation|
|Among one of the greatest games I’ve ever witnessed live. Base pinned the Sov player down to 100 pts by 10 minutes. Still lost, had no late game power. Besides going T3 instead I don’t think they could have done anything different, and against a more common opening I think they still may have struggled.|
*default I consider to be 3 Grens + Mg42
A 0.357 win%
That’s fucking brutal.
The Ostheer were being absolutely crushed with most games lasting < 30 mins and Ostheer suffering a VP deficit of at least 300 points, often much more; and in only two of those wins would I say the Ostheer player was ever comfortable, (one game against Augustine being ridiculous and playing a terrible opening, I’ll let you decide which one it was) and the other was against the Brits as well, a faction possibly even more broken. Their close wins usually involved some novelty that their opponent wasn't prepared for, or they were against openings that were far from optimal, not as bad as the Brit games but still pretty garbo. (who is going flame car and back teching into a Maxim at 12 mins???)
I challenge anyone to analyse this game, the last in the games I reviewed, and point out what the Ostheer player should have done differently or how they should l2p:
They played their damn heart out, I was really impressed, they played nearly perfectly for 40 minutes out of 44. They were brilliant in the early game managing to base pin the Sov player and in the mid game they pulled out every trick, rifle nade mines, vet 222 spotting scope/werfer synergy, attack ground Brummbar... everything. Yes they made some late game blunders, they even got bailed out by a Panther that took 58 thousand deflections, but so did the Soviet player, moreso I would say, and good faction design and balance should not require a >100 rated player playing +98% accurately.
I had planned to watch more games but after that I was too tired... I also tried to view some >800 rated games for a more balanced perspective but… they weren’t very instructive.........