Wasn't the 5th guy added to mitigate the absence of shield? Why the camo isn't a timer ability doesn't and cost munition like any other Atgun Vet1 abilities?
Retreat could go, camo stay munition free and we have a well balanced unit.
It seems pretty obvious to me. The Sherman is both USF's generalist medium tank and its anti-infantry specialist if you toggle its HE rounds on. It's a Cromwell and a Centaur at the same time, which is why it's such a good unit.
Making it a tank destroyer on top of that would be ridiculous.
Sherman doesn't need to be that good vs infantry and could see its damage power cursor moved more from AI to AT. And Ammo swap is already a good limitation to his potential, if there is a tank and infantry in front of it, it can harm both at the same time.
I really don't like the idea of more units being added to stock. I think usf has the tools it needs they simply need to be refined.
The sherman for example should be the workhorse of the usf, not the Jackson. Perhaps modifying radio net to include increased pen? I know it's already a solid vet ability but if it adds some diversity and reduces fucking Jackson spam I'm all for it. We solve the medium AT issue we can remove that aspect of the Jackson equation.
Sherman changes is my go to solution but there are probably parameters we don't see since this solution has never been considered.
Exactly; which is why the M36 needs to be "Split" into 2 units - one coming earlier, and better suited against mediums, and the other later and better against heavies.
Indeed that's the most reasonable solution. And not a pure nerf like many are suggesting.
-It was a buff once you understand how damage model works in the game. 240dmg and no penetration was useless because a single deflection meant you had a dead tank.
200dmg with slightly more pen didn't cut it because you need a platform like the PV to make it work, if not you get owned by medium tanks. The FF get's away with it by having Tulips to "scare" or lock down vehicles.
-I think you overblow this match up cause SU85 and FF exist already in the game.
-Because it would not be a copy paste from the current values. Let me further explain:
Normal shell: 50 range, normal accuracy, lower pen, medium RoF for a TD
AP shell: 60 range, lower accuracy (increase size on PV and other heavies), higher pen, slower RoF, 200dmg.
Right now, due to how good the main gun is, there's little reason to ever use HVAP after it forces a reload and having slower ROF.
The problem with this approach is the amount of work require to make it work.
Let me ask you some question:
-Do you think USF is fine in 1v1?
-Do you think the Jackson can be considered OP by any metric (EITHER by the unit in the faction or compared to other similar units)? Note: don't value if the unit needs to remain OP for the whole faction to be relevant.
USF is overperforming in 1vs1 but that's not a Jackson issue. A year ago USF was performing poorly on 1vs1 and still the Jackson was there, even costing 5 fuel less.
Jackson is OP by necessity of being able to counter mediums and heavies. But Panther is exactly in the same position and both units need to be matched in that matter.
Pls don't play the victim card. It's like you forget that USF was actually the best faction performing during the last tournament and that i already mentioned that if the Jackson hasn't been nerf yet is for the same reasons OH hasn't been buffed yet. Teamgames.
1- The damage went down, but the penetration and RoF got increased heavily. Would you rather be doing damage from 60 range reliable or having to flank tanks with 480 HP to do 240dmg per shot.
The 200dmg model didn't work because the platform it was used had 480HP. That kind of damage model require either heavier pen and/or a heavier platform (i was advocating 200dmg model for PV).
2- I never called anyone a fanboy, so don't bring it up. Anyone can make mistakes, if not we would have never seen Ostwind spam, 7 man conscripts dominating, JLI/Falls, teamgame rushing TA/Tigers requiring hotfix, etc.
3- Yeah, i'm comparing the unit to other TDs but it seems you also missed the part (might had been in another thread) where i said that the Jackson holds the faction in the lategame specially for teamgames.
Which is why i have already consider all the aspects that made the unit useless in the past.
If you start complaining about lacking features, the other 2 allied factions can easily complain as well about all the things USF already has.
Finally the big cats had been nerfed to acceptable levels, specially after losing the 2 shot capabilities and range. One of the reasons you left the Jackson OP.
Therefore the options are:
-You can't reduce HP below 640HP. Anyone who suggest this doesn't remember why it was set in that number in the beginning. It's meant to survive as other tanks 3 shots against super heavy TDs and anything below 560HP means it's not gonna be usable for teamgames.
-Cost. It's in a good spot. You can't realistically just keep increasing it.
-Moving accuracy. If possible i wouldn't touch as part of the whole "faction" feature but that's an option.
-Mobility. It's at the high end of max speed and acceleration. Acceleration was my 2nd option to touch (cause it's easier) with infinite resources and time been available and looking for ways to adjust the main gun my first but that requires more work.
-Turret rotation: i leave the slow traverse to the FF.
-Main gun. My take on this is making the HVAP vet 0 and a toggleable munition just like with the Sherman. Then make the main gun get 50 range reduce pen slightly higher RoF and the HVAP stays as slower RoF, 200 dmg and high Pen.
Did I play the victim card? M36 has been modified to be less of a flip coin unit. Neither buff nor nerfed. Actually I also liked the old version.
-Mobility change is a nerf that will impact the M36 / panther matchup.
-Main gun is just a plain buff. I don't understand how you can see it as a valid change.
Because it's not about making the Jackson been weaker towards mediums or whatever but giving it a clear weakness compared to the whole roster of TDs. Heavy meta been a problem is not the only issue with Jackson. The mod team already acknowledge that the Jackson was OP but just gave it a +5fuel increase as a token nerf which accomplish nothing.
USF is overperforming on 1v1 but touching the Jackson is scary for those in the mod team who plays teamgames as we know that Jackson holds the faction on those modes. It's the same as applying buffs to OH because on 1v1 they are a on the weaker side but they are doing "fine" on teamgames.
Su76, Stug, JPIV, Su85, FF have clear weakness. Be it casemate, mobility, low penetration, HP, damage, RoF, turret rotation. The PV here been the oddball been a tank hunter limited by 50 range and excessive cost.
Look, the Jackson was BAD in the past, but it got plenty of buffs through different patch cycles. MAYBE it's time to rollback some of them.
M36 being buffed? it also went from 240 damage to 160, sight bonus removed, popcap +2 and +20 fuel.
Survivability has been buffed at cost of damage spike. Do you really consider Mr.Smith who did the job an USF fanboy?
Don't you remember the shit storm we had every time a wheraboo forum's fighter had a bad RNG luck vs Jackson back in the days? The same shit storm we have today when the same wheraboo forum's fighters have a bad RNG luck vs the same Jackson.
Your vision of the M36 is biaised when you compare it to the Su-85, where is the Katy, where are the many mines you spend you munition on, where is the super cheap T34, the -I don't need ammo to pen you- zig gun, where are the half of doctrines with the -Out of jail card- Button to save your Su-85's ass from flanking etc... Where is the equivalence of the Su-76 when you don't have 145 fuel in bank for the M36?
Seriously, you can't be serious comparing both units in a vacuum. Not you please, leave it for Vipper and his kind. M36 weakness is everywhere else as USF late game is still dependent on crutch units as per original design.
I'm all for changing it, reducing M36 potential and giving USF late game more balance but the last +5 fuel change the balance team made let me think there is little to be done or Relic is vetoing any proposed solution.
Vet 0 Su85 doesn't have issues dealing with heavier armor and with vet, it makes armor irrelevant cause it will only deflect the likes of Ele (Pen goes to 312/299/286)
Which one?
OH one doesn't improve combat capabilities so they will still miss and they still need to close the 20 range gap.
The heavier variation of Blitz has inferior numbers (so only relevant to PV). Making the PV, a much more expensive tank hunter requiring to chase (missing) for quite some time before killing it.
OKW one is much more tamer speed wise but instead gains combat capabilities but for a reduce period of time (10s).
As this stats haven't changed in a while, i think it should be correct:
Jackson
Speed: 6.5 Accel: 3 Rotate: 30
OKW PIV:
Speed: 6 Accel: 2 Rotate: 30
OH PIV:
Speed: 6.3 Accel: 2.1 Rotate: 32
OH/OKW PV:
Speed: 6.6 Accel: 2.4 Rotate: 30
Firefly
Speed: 5.3 Accel: 1.6 Rotate: 32
You're talking about nerfing its acceleration, if the player doesn't know how to stop before fire I can't help here.
Then again I'm not sure why a generalist medium tank that cost less and is already on the top food chain vs other generalist medium tanks should have a fair % of chance to take down a more expensive specialist tank destroyer.
Even enlarging the big picture to all Ostheer vs USF late game roaster, there is only one other unit that can go toes to toes with late game Ostheer and that's the Pershing.
Jackson being THE superior TD is a lie since the Jackson and Panther matchup is balanced and this is what matter today. People complain that their Pz4's windows of opportunity is reduced, well that's the same problem for everyone using medium tanks. Fixing Heavy tank problem is a first step but Jackson is still going to be there even if you nerf heavy tanks to oblivion because Panthers are here and from what we see in this patch, they're going to be even more here.