My suggestion is to have t34/76 buildable from t3 in batches of 2 only for the price of, say, 500 / 150.
Reasoning:
- time gating. By making them into a batch of 2 you ensure additional 3-4 minute wait before the first t34 can be rolled out (with the proviso that when they do come, there will be 2), giving Axis vehicles much needed breathing room.
- cost effectiveness / build incentive. Batching 2 tanks at once was always given at a discount, and a t34 sorely needs this discount to make it appealing. Even at 300/80 nobody builds the things, especially in team games. In t3 it would be viable at that price, but it would still be the worst medium in the game. I argue it needs to be even cheaper. But making a single t34 any cheaper and putting it in t3 at the same time would shut down Axis vehicle play too early (see above).
- fluff. They are pack animals (at least are supposed to be, in the game's own words). However as single-tank build they take a relatively long time to build anyway. They will have low life expectancy, against Axis Schrecks, AT guns and heavy tanks.
- late game window of opportunity. If they are cheaper per unit and come from t3, there is an incentive to spam them (medium tank spam should be a legitimate tactic and was never a problem, even with factions that have vastly superior mediums) and maybe accumulate them during the game. This reliance on numbers might even be usable once Panthers and Tigers are on the field.
Yes, 500/150 is insanely cheap, you basically get 2 mediums for the price of a single OKW panzer. But have you tried using the t34/76 against ANYTHING lately? I would rather have one Panzer than two t34s, that is how bad they are. |
@up
you forgot about bonus rec dmg from explosives, ballistics and flames The bonus is, what, 50%? Even compensating for that, it still has a vastly larger hit point pool than a mobile mortar, and takes much longer to kill than mobile mortars ever would, even not taking brace into account.
Sorry, even with that factor, its survivability is still greatly in the plus, not a minus as you are trying to make it seem. |
I am all in favour of a mobile mortar or, barring that, some sort of Mortar Pit redesign.
The mortar pit is not a regular mortar. It's an emplacement. Completely different counters, completely different gameplay. Some people say its immobility makes up for all this. I disagreee. Simply transplanting default mortar behaviour onto a braceable emplacement does not work in this game.
Here's a breakdown:
+ damage
+ there are two tubes
+ fire rate can be further boosted by making the simcity or garrisoning, and it also serves as garrison cover
+ range (just enough to counter the counters
+ very durable against small arms and enemy counterarty fire
+ brace
- immobile.
- costs about 40% more than the other heavy mortar
Not all +s and -s are of the same weight but there are significant upsides. As I said before, if it could shoot Sturmtiger shells it would still be immobile, would that make it okay?
I would even go as far as to remove autofire and restrict it to the barrage (with great decrease in barrage cooldown, let's say 20 seconds). You can then tweak damage and range to make up for it. Yes such a micro tax doesn't affect other mortars or Leigs/pack howies. Yes, people will just see it as micro tax and they will be right in a way. Unlike other instances where micro tax was removed (leigs autofacing, isu152 shots) this is something that is primarily used as a barrage weapon, and I dare say cooldown micro tax is different from facing micro tax. This will obviously not happen (I can already taste the hatemail) but if only Relic had the balls to do it it would greatly repair the game (Brits will still be gimped with a complete lack of mobile artillery, let's se how the Land Mattress fixes that).
The reasoning is, if you want to lock down an area of the map you should do more than just build a unit and repair it periodically. |
Dunno what people are on about regarding the price, at 160 ammo it is currently the best priced artillery in the game for effect it gives. Though I would play the sound 1-2 seconds earlier.
Single shell pinpoint accuracy artillery with no visual cue is precisely the most useful type of arty CoH has. Yes please. Sure the siren is a dead giveaway but in teamgames (I know, I know) you might be spread out and it is really difficult to a) hear it in time with all the extr crap going on b) keep track of enemy LOS givers (major factor in anticipating Stuka strike location) c) larger map with forces more spread out = more potential drop locations.
But really Stuka problems are mostly that it counters artillery too well for cost, it is available in very good commanders so much more ubiquitous presence in the field unlike say, il2 bomb run.
Fix it oneshotting howitzers, then we can talk. |
Mortar pits are, if not exactly cancer, then at least the leprosy of CoH2. They won't kill the game on their own but they will make it a gruesome, painful and rotting experience for everyone involved and will greatly reduce the long-term appeal of the game.
BUT IT IS STATIONARY
Yes, okay, if it could shoot sturmtiger shells for free it would still be stationary, would that make it okay? If answer is "no" then we establish there is a maximum utility cost to being stationary.
Currently fighting with or against the mortar pit is an exciting game of hit point management not unlike balancing your checkbook. Thrilling defense, I microed the SHIT out of that engineer squad repairing it and then I clicked brace and then in a brilliant tactical move I continued reparing it while braced oh man. I am winrar!
Brits need nondoctrinal indirect fire, preferably mobile.
I am glad for the new sim city commander, in a Schadenfreude way. Maybe when the 3v3 and 4v4 playerbase ragequits, and slashes by half the number of concurrent players, maybe Relic will do something about making the mortar pit fun to play with and against. |
(Long-ass post)
I will state my argument more clearly in the interest of not being misinterpreted : I am opposed specifically to double Panzerschreck upgrade because it allows accumulating a critical mass of Schrecks (at significant cost, to be sure, but still) that have the potential to alphastrike-oneshot Allied medium tanks.
In all likelihood the Schrecks will never be reverted to one and there are much larger fish to fry at the moment in the game. What I take issue with is people using the appeal to the state of the game as it was years ago. Yes, old PGs were more expensive but it also took 3 days to drop a single model which inordinately buffed them as the assault troops, it comes from the time when veterancy was different, remember Wehrmacht vet2 defensive bonuses? Cause I do. Weapons worked differently, hell, even teching and tier placement was different. People are jumping at boogeymen here, panzergrenadiers are far more problematic as a blob of antitank alpha-strikers than they might ever be as an uber-expensive anti-infantry blob that happens to have 1 Schreck per squad.
Hell, at this point, I am not even arguing so much for a single-schreck upgrade (yes, I think it would improve the game, but maybe it's a shit opinion). But what I am saying with certainty is that any appeal to "it was tried in the Alpha and didn't work" is completely and absolutely pointless. Alpha was a COMPLETELY different game, you might as well be talking about CoH1. Different age, different game, literally nothing stands anymore.
All factions have their share of generalists and crippling specialization is OKW's shtick. Wehr does have generalists (aforementioned PzIV and even Panther to an extent). But you exaggerate the potential of all Axis units, as usual, and insist on flawed analogies, quoting similarities to Volks when it suits you (a single Schreck on an infantry unit, oh no!) while completely skirting around the obvious things that invalidate the analogy, such as the fact Volks have a forward retreat point, are far more resilient and can afford to retreat much later, and the fact Panzergrenadier blobs are a real pain in the anti-armour department and are not, and have never been, a pain in anti-infantry duty (cf. Obers with mp44 for that particular role). |
I really think it's fine (without the suppression).
If you decide to bunch up your units in 1 freakin' area, you should get punished for it. No problem. Bring Katyushas up to the same standard then. If people are intent on having squadwipes, okay, just let all the factions get a squadwipe rocket arty and be done with it, not just Axis (and a certain p2w US commander). |
Volksgrens example pretty much proves that it still is a dreadful idea. I have to disagree, and it's not even a secret I hate Volks spam with a passion.
The two are completely different units. Panzergrenadiers are much more expensive to field and maintain, are squishier, and also do not have the benefit of forward retreat points + healing.
I understand that people are trying to avoid generalist units but I think it is the Volks cancer clouding people's senses.
Wehrmacht has a completely different dynamic and it seems to me there is nothing wrong with the concept of generalist units.What is wrong with generalists, as long as they are not OP? A Panzer IV is a very good generalist tank, and the game is no worse for it. In fact, its same tier has a specialist AT and specialist AI and yet they are pretty much all useful units, I field all three depending on the situation.
When I lose 3 models from pzgrens and they drop a single Schreck we get such a situation. And yet somehow I don't catch myself going "oh man time to lord it over the map with an uber potent squad".
There is no benefit to single shreck and there is a lot of potential for another tumor to pop up in gameplay. Multiple doubleschreck Panzergrenadier blobs that roams the map like a tank terror mob (pardon the pun) and relies on alpha strike damage is also a tumor, so we'd be rooting out an existing one. |
On one hand, it is weird they cannot shoot. Bren has a short window of usability as it is. On the other, fkin clowncars man, RNGesus knows we don't need more of those. Though if you think about it really hard, not one faction makes successful use of clown cars except when the flamers are in the mix.
I'd like to see a bit more utility from the Bren Carrier.
Solution: allow squads to shoot out of the Carrier, as long as it is stationary. Make them unable to fire while the vehicle is moving at all.
In fact, do so for every single open topped transport in the game.
There, clown car problem fixed. |
The reasoning behind why a single Schreck purchase was removed - as correctly stated by persons in this thread - was that the Panzergrenadiers were a solid all-around squad with good anti-infantry damage.
However, this was way, way back, as in, before the game's release. It is a completely different game right now. I don't think people realize how much this game has fundamentally changed over the years.
I think the game would benefit from single-schreck panzergrenadiers. Thinking they will magically break the game because of something that was true 3 years ago? Next you will mention how you have difficulty countering Snipers in an m3. |