Login

russian armor

Fallschirmjager should lose snares

11 Oct 2019, 14:59 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Fallschirmjager, like the last problem OKW squad, are cloaking elite anti-infantry infantry.

The natural counter to such units is vehicles.

However, Fallschirmjager have a Panzerfaust. This makes it unsafe to scout them out with anything with less health than a Valentine. Given they drop in at CP2, this isn't a realistic counter.

This results in a unit that:

  • Can't be forced out of position by long range infantry, because they cloak and therefore cannot be targeted at range if they don't want to be.
  • Can't be forced out of position by short range infantry because of their high damage and bundle grenade ambush.
  • Can't be flushed out by light vehicles because it can snare them, rendering them sitting ducks for a Puma or Raktenwerfer.

Something's gotta give. Either Falls need to lose their ambush camouflage so they can be attacked outside of close range, or they need to lose their snare so they can be flushed out by light vehicles.
11 Oct 2019, 15:04 PM
#2
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Removing the Faust would be the obvious thing to do. Falls are still too good overall if you considering 2 CP, moderate price and insane DPS after upgrade. No reason a unit that good vs infantry should have Faust.
11 Oct 2019, 15:11 PM
#3
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

What if Falls had an AT grenade that stuns light vehicles for like 3-5 secs, but doesn’t damage them? That way they can’t fight LVs, but if they are caught by one in cloak they can stun and retreat.
11 Oct 2019, 15:16 PM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

What if Falls had an AT grenade that stuns light vehicles for like 3-5 secs, but doesn’t damage them? That way they can’t fight LVs, but if they are caught by one in cloak they can stun and retreat.


Commandos don't have that. Cloaking PGrens don't have that. JLI don't have that. Stormtroopers don't have that. Pathfinders don't have that.

Why should Fallschirmjager?
11 Oct 2019, 15:16 PM
#5
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 818

Yes this would provide a better way to scout for invis unit. Additionally right now there is no reason to buy a volk when you can replace it with a fall.

I think it's key to remember when the Game was released and falls had panzerfausts, It was the only unit in the OKW roster that did have faust. Volks had shreks
11 Oct 2019, 15:21 PM
#6
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Yes this would provide a better way to scout for invis unit. Additionally right now there is no reason to buy a volk when you can replace it with a fall.

I think it's key to remember when the Game was released and falls had panzerfausts, It was the only unit in the OKW roster that did have faust. Volks had shreks


It was also the old Falls, which didn't have Vet 0 cloaking or First Strike and died when you looked at them funny.
11 Oct 2019, 15:22 PM
#7
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1947

Removing the Faust would be the obvious thing to do. Falls are still too good overall if you considering 2 CP, moderate price and insane DPS after upgrade. No reason a unit that good vs infantry should have Faust.


+1 I've really struggled against them as Soviet because none of my infantry stands up to them well and T34's or T70's often get fausted. The generous cloaking ability means they can ambush snipers it what looks to be open ground as long as there is some yellow cover from shell impacts. KV1's do much better against them but they're a lot of pop cap for something that rarely penetrates a Panther or heavy and bounces a lot against even a Brummbaer.
11 Oct 2019, 15:24 PM
#8
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 818

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 15:21 PMLago


It was also the old Falls, which didn't have Vet 0 cloaking or First Strike and died when you looked at them funny.


They were stronger than obers are now on release, but still not as good as OG obers, but they got nerfed about 2 months after release and they have never really been particularly good since.
11 Oct 2019, 15:27 PM
#9
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 15:16 PMLago


Commandos don't have that. Cloaking PGrens don't have that. JLI don't have that. Stormtroopers don't have that. Pathfinders don't have that.

Why should Fallschirmjager?


Because Falls alone have to make their doctrine relevant. It’s fine if you wanna campaign for Falls to be just another mediocre Elite infantry unit, but that’s not gonna happen.
11 Oct 2019, 15:32 PM
#10
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Yes this would provide a better way to scout for invis unit. Additionally right now there is no reason to buy a volk when you can replace it with a fall.

I think it's key to remember when the Game was released and falls had panzerfausts, It was the only unit in the OKW roster that did have faust. Volks had shreks
are u for real ? does the 340 mp cost and 36 reinforce cost get removed ?

by that logic there is no reason to use IS over commando and rifle over para
11 Oct 2019, 15:35 PM
#11
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Because Falls alone have to make their doctrine relevant. It’s fine if you wanna campaign for Falls to be just another mediocre Elite infantry unit, but that’s not gonna happen.


Then give the doctrine something else.

Maybe something like this?

  • Stuka Smoke Recon
  • Fallschirmjager
  • Airdrop Pak 40
  • Anti-Aircraft Doctrine (bundled Field Defences and Ostwind Flakpanzer)
  • Stuka Dive Bomb

Then it's another good teamgame doctrine.


What we shouldn't do is keep the current Fallschirmjager design out of a misguided 'every unit must be relevant no matter how bad it is' philosophy.

The Bofors got soft-removed for a reason.
11 Oct 2019, 15:36 PM
#12
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

are u for real ? does the 340 mp cost and 36 reinforce cost get removed ?

by that logic there is no reason to use IS over commando and rifle over para

Commandos and IS are vastly different from durability to range of engagement
And funny you say rifles and paras because they are so similar that the only reason one wouldn't completely replace rifles with paras is the timing.
11 Oct 2019, 15:39 PM
#13
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

are u for real ? does the 340 mp cost and 36 reinforce cost get removed ?

by that logic there is no reason to use IS over commando and rifle over para


Commandos are very different units to Sections.

You do replace dead Riflemen with Paratroopers if you've gone Airborne.
11 Oct 2019, 15:39 PM
#14
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 15:35 PMLago


Then give the doctrine something else.

Maybe something like this?

  • Stuka Smoke Recon
  • Fallschirmjager
  • Airdrop Pak 40
  • Anti-Aircraft Doctrine (bundled Field Defences and Ostwind Flakpanzer)
  • Stuka Dive Bomb


The current Fallschirmjager are a bad design.

'every doctrine and ability must be relevant' is not an excuse for bad mechanics.


Like I’ve said before, if the balance team wants to remove the faust from Falls and buff the doctrine a bit, I’m 200% all for it.

Your suggestion though would probably cause mass hysteria, it’s quite OP af.

I’d rather see something like:

0CP - Ostwind
2CP - Fallschrimjaegers
4CP - Stuka reconnaissance&smoke run
5CP - Paradrop medical supplies (20 muni, 1 box for AoE healing)
10CP - Airborne Assault
11 Oct 2019, 15:41 PM
#15
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474


Commandos and IS are vastly different from durability to range of engagement
And funny you say rifles and paras because they are so similar that the only reason one wouldn't completely replace rifles with paras is the timing.


jump backJump back to quoted post11 Oct 2019, 15:39 PMLago


Commandos are very different units to Sections.

You do replace dead Riflemen with Paratroopers if you've gone Airborne.

if u give them 2 bren they are straight up better than 5 men double bren IS

11 Oct 2019, 15:44 PM
#16
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Like I’ve said before, if the balance team wants to remove the faust from Falls and buff the doctrine a bit, I’m 200% all for it.

Your suggestion though would probably cause mass hysteria, it’s quite OP af.

I’d rather see something like:

0CP - Ostwind
2CP - Fallschrimjaegers
4CP - Stuka reconnaissance&smoke run
5CP - Paradrop medical supplies (20 muni, 1 box for AoE healing)
10CP - Airborne Assault
5 cp lol

at least make it like the ostuppen one : medical supply, pak 40 and mg 34
11 Oct 2019, 15:49 PM
#17
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

5 cp lol

at least make it like the ostuppen one : medical supply, pak 40 and mg 34


I just don’t wanna trigger people by proposing something OP. Yeah 5CP is too much, probs 2 is better.

Hell, if I could go ham I’d copy paste the British Air Resupply Operation from Tactical Support regiment, with 3 medic boxes, an ostheer mortar and a pak 40.
11 Oct 2019, 15:49 PM
#18
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 818

are u for real ? does the 340 mp cost and 36 reinforce cost get removed ?

by that logic there is no reason to use IS over commando and rifle over para



Commandos and IS are vastly different from durability to range of engagement
And funny you say rifles and paras because they are so similar that the only reason one wouldn't completely replace rifles with paras is the timing.


And the Rifle At snare :romeoHairDay:

You are correct in your argument that there is a cost difference between the two and that can influence the choice. My thoughts are that the function of the units are quite similar outside of cost and so if I am picking them for their battlefield purpose I will choose the falls.

Volks and falls each having STG/BAR profile weapons and rifles that are moderately effective at close, mid and long range makes them similar in choosing engagement ranges. Falls have bundle nades and Frangibles to Volks Flame grenade. Both have panzerfaust.

Then there's popcap. Falls are 9 and volks are 7. You can get 3 falls for less than 4 volks and I think it's tough to pass down that value if you are looking at being popcapped.

There is the risk of being bleed more by vehicles with falls, but I feel they compensate you for that with the dps and wipe potential they bring to the table.

11 Oct 2019, 15:53 PM
#19
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Your suggestion though would probably cause mass hysteria, it’s quite OP af.


I don't see any broken combinations in there.
11 Oct 2019, 15:54 PM
#20
avatar of The Spycrab

Posts: 39




if u give them 2 bren they are straight up better than 5 men double bren IS



Correct me if i am wrong, but aren't brens a long range weapon, you know where the commando stens are useless? so how do you treat it then? a CQC squad of like a regular IS?
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

328 users are online: 328 guests
17 posts in the last 24h
43 posts in the last week
97 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44644
Welcome our newest member, felayo364
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM