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Sniper Cover Concept

23 Apr 2019, 22:55 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I had this idea in another thread and I'm forking it off into it's own because it was a little off-topic there.

What do you do when you're being shot at by a sniper? You get behind something. Snipers in this game don't work like that: they ignore cover.

But what if they didn't?

If snipers followed the usual cover rules, they'd miss half their shots against units in cover. Units in heavy cover would also take half damage, meaning a single shot from a sniper wouldn't kill them.

Say we apply that. That makes snipers weaker, so we balance that out by cutting their manpower cost to 240 MP.

What are the consequences of this?

  • Snipers become reverse mortars.
    This makes the sniper very strong against exposed units, and less effective against units in cover.

    Mortars flush you out of cover with long range AoE attacks. Snipers become the opposite: they force you into cover to mitigate their damage output.

    It also creates nice synergy with other units: anything that gets enemy troops out of cover has strong synergy with these snipers.

  • Snipers become cheaper.
    The sniper's no longer a strategy unto itself: you can afford to build one as a spotter if you want.

    This mitigates the extreme risk-reward dynamic that makes sniper gameplay so frustrating for all involved: if you lose your sniper it's no big deal. Furthermore, as you can counterposition snipers by sticking to cover, it's not "wipe the sniper or die" for the opponent.

  • Snipers become very effective against exposed units.
    You know what doesn't use cover? Blobs. Against a blobber, this 240 MP sniper is just as effective as the 360 MP sniper.

    They're also stronger against team weapons (what they're ostensibly for), which tend to set up in the open.
23 Apr 2019, 23:52 PM
#2
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Whether is likely, feasible or needed to change sniper mechanics, i'm gonna say blobs do use cover.

The unfortunate case of what is called craters.
24 Apr 2019, 00:01 AM
#3
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

blobs do use cover.


Maybe cover only works against snipers if the unit isn't moving? That way it doesn't matter if the target is a-moving through a crater.
24 Apr 2019, 00:06 AM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Maybe cover only works against snipers if the unit isn't moving? That way it doesn't matter if you a-move through a crater


By the time the battlefield is made of craters, you've got the rocket artillery that made them to use on blobs.

You could potentially scrap the light cover accuracy penalty and just have the heavy cover damage reduction, but 240 is might be too cheap in that case.
24 Apr 2019, 00:16 AM
#5
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

Regardless of whether this is a good idea to do or not, I must admit I fucking like it.
24 Apr 2019, 01:06 AM
#6
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

I like the idea too, but only for heavy cover. Light cover usually is a bush or something soft, a crater partially covers the model too. Therefore a deadly hit could land anyways.

But in heavy cover either the bullet can get through or the soldier is well hidden.

It might be harder to code heavy only protection against snipers, but i think this will be a great change.

It would be absolutly bonkers if snipers aiming at soldiers without cover were faster than those under medium/heavy cover.
24 Apr 2019, 01:55 AM
#7
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Yea I think it would have to only apy to heavy cover or they would become useless late game. Also unless they applied AOE Supression or something the wouldn't be useful against blobs without an army of them but that's not the point.

I personally don't know if I would spend 240mp for a sniper that can only pop a model in open cover. Especially with current ROF and durability stats. Just wouldn't seem worth it imo and that's from someone who really wants cover to mean more than it does in game.

I like the idea but it definitely needs more refinement than a cost decrease and drastic performance cut.
24 Apr 2019, 01:58 AM
#8
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

It might be harder to code heavy only protection against snipers, but i think this will be a great change.

Actually, that part would be entirely easy. The way weapons are penalized (or not, in the case of flamethrowers [who do 25% more damage against targets in heavy cover] as well as sniper rifles) by cover is actually just a section of the weapons' own stats, so they would just have to change some numbers around.
24 Apr 2019, 07:12 AM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

I have another suggestion:
Sniper only critical kill weapon teams.

Sniper now do 40-60 damage to infantry.

Plain simple clean.
24 Apr 2019, 07:26 AM
#10
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Yea I think it would have to only apy to heavy cover or they would become useless late game. Also unless they applied AOE Supression or something the wouldn't be useful against blobs without an army of them but that's not the point.
...

Thats a fantastic idea! If snipers can suppress (but not pin down), at least soldiers without cover, it would stop that same squad to hunt down the sniper. In a 1v1 situation, snipers would have an edge, but if other squad is around and not in the same blob, they can flank and kill the sniper. Makes sense. Also since sniper shots are so unfrequent, it cant be abused (I hope)
24 Apr 2019, 07:42 AM
#11
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

Its a neat concept but I don't see any way it'll work out.

The already crippling ost/ukf sniper arrangement suddenly becomes totally unplayable. Snipes walk at the same speed as tommies. You can't chase without dropping like flies. You can't stay in cover and use your bonus without 240mp snipers constantly bleeding your models. You don't have a decent LV counter.

USF and Soviets also don't win long range firefights against grens. Grens are already incentivised to use long range and green cover because MG42 while rifles and conscripts/penals need to close the gap (via moving) to be at a range where they win firefights.

This isn't a blob counter.

All it will do is encourage stationary, LMG troops only play when fighting Ost or Sov and further beat the already bad brits.
24 Apr 2019, 07:48 AM
#12
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Apr 2019, 01:58 AMVuther

Actually, that part would be entirely easy. The way weapons are penalized (or not, in the case of flamethrowers [who do 25% more damage against targets in heavy cover] as well as sniper rifles) by cover is actually just a section of the weapons' own stats, so they would just have to change some numbers around.

But snipers don't kill by inflicting damage, they kill by inflicting a kill critical on an infantry hit, don't they? I'm not sure how trivial it would be to remove the kill crit then give the sniper rifle damage, but at the very least, it would be more complex than solely adjusting the cover multipliers.
24 Apr 2019, 09:54 AM
#13
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

I like it! This new concept
24 Apr 2019, 11:21 AM
#14
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 955

Certainly better than their current implementation
GJ
24 Apr 2019, 12:31 PM
#15
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

But snipers don't kill by inflicting damage, they kill by inflicting a kill critical on an infantry hit, don't they? I'm not sure how trivial it would be to remove the kill crit then give the sniper rifle damage, but at the very least, it would be more complex than solely adjusting the cover multipliers.


You could make the snipe crit work like a vehicle kill crit, perhaps? It goes off when the sniper rifle kills a model. That makes it solely aesthetic, setting off the Unit Sniped notification.

Then you give the sniper rifle 160 damage, 0.25 damage modifier vs heavy cover and 0.25 damage modifier vs vehicles.

That'll inflict a kill on a 80 or 82 HP model regardless of command aura, and 40 damage on a unit in heavy cover or a vehicle.
24 Apr 2019, 12:34 PM
#16
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Just put snipers in hunting squads with % chance to score crits on low health units, like JLI and Pathfinders.
24 Apr 2019, 16:16 PM
#17
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2237 | Subs: 15

24 Apr 2019, 20:43 PM
#18
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

What if you balanced it on aiming time? For example a unit in red cover would need 0.3 seconds of aiming, while a unit in green cover would require 5-10 seconds.
24 Apr 2019, 20:51 PM
#19
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

That'd be very elegant, but I don't know if it'd be possible to implement.
24 Apr 2019, 23:41 PM
#20
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1


But snipers don't kill by inflicting damage, they kill by inflicting a kill critical on an infantry hit, don't they? I'm not sure how trivial it would be to remove the kill crit then give the sniper rifle damage, but at the very least, it would be more complex than solely adjusting the cover multipliers.

You are right, I did forget about that, and I can't claim to know about just what's possible with making crits. Maybe a "Cause 40 damage critical on a penetrating hit" is simple to make, maybe it's not.

I am leading to toward the former in my assumptions after a quick glance in the attribute editor though, since I believe the Ostheer sniper's Incendiary Shot ability's weapon section in the attribute editor causes 50 damage on a penetrating hit against light vehicles, so it may be capable to adapt the concept against infantry along with adding a requirement that the target be in heavy cover...but the latter part is definitely a bit more beyond me since I don't actually know of any abilities that anything like do that.
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