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russian armor

Tiger PzKpfw VI

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7 Feb 2019, 14:01 PM
#61
avatar of Loren

Posts: 107



and now calc the stats for:

- jp4 fighting at the move a IS2
- FF fighting at the move a KT

And dont forget to shout the mouth after you realize jp4 is shit


This is why you are biased.
JP4 wasn't counter of heavy tanks. there are rather options; Panther.

so anyway if you want, I make calculations for you.

IS-2 Hit point = 1040
IS-2 Front armor = 375
IS-2 Target size penalty = 2600%
Damage of JP4 = 160
number of penetrated rounds to destroy = 1040/160 = 7
JP4 Hit chance to IS-2 at maximum range = 4% * 26 = 100%
JP4 reload speed = 4.3~5.2
JP4 Penetration at maximum range = 170
Penetration chance to JP4 -> IS-2 = 170/375 = 45.3%
Expected Time to kill IS-2 = 4.3~5.2 / 0.453 * 7 = 66.4s~80.4s


KT Hit point = 1280
KT Front armor = 375
KT Target size penalty = 2400%
Damge of FF = 200
number of penetrated rounds to destroy = 1280/200 = 7
FF Hit chance to KT at maximum range = 4.4% * 24 = 100%
FF reload speed = 8
FF Penetration at maximum range = 210
Penetration chance to FF -> KT = 210/375 = 56.0%
Expected Time to kill KT = 8 / 0.56 * 7 = 100s



JP4 can kills IS-2 faster than FF kills KT
Now admit that you are biased.
7 Feb 2019, 14:02 PM
#62
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243


U are dumb or what pls tell me what other opitons alies have espiecially nondoctrinal usf stuff hmm? Maybe sherman spam? Or as some stupid guy said bazzoka and at gun spam lol. This is more design problem. If u nerf jackson usf will be useless because they have only one gardening unit for late game. For exaple okw has jagpanzer panther kingtiger and they all good for tank battles.

thats why i suggested a t95 or other options for USF.

but jackson is by far the best TD you can get nondoc in this game vs armor. it trippled the effency from all other TDs.


its like you can get a vet 5 lmg ober while all other can get only 2 models pios.
7 Feb 2019, 14:04 PM
#63
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2019, 14:01 PMLoren


This is why you are biased.
JP4 wasn't counter of heavy tanks. there are rather options; Panther.

so anyway if you want, I make calculations for you.

IS-2 Hit point = 1040
IS-2 Front armor = 375
IS-2 Target size penalty = 2600%
Damage of JP4 = 160
number of penetrated rounds to destroy = 1040/160 = 7
JP4 Hit chance to IS-2 at maximum range = 4% * 26 = 100%
JP4 reload speed = 4.3~5.2
JP4 Penetration at maximum range = 170
Penetration chance to JP4 -> IS-2 = 170/375 = 45.3%
Expected Time to kill IS-2 = 4.3~5.2 / 0.453 * 7 = 66.4s~80.4s


KT Hit point = 1280
KT Front armor = 375
KT Target size penalty = 2400%
Damge of FF = 200
number of penetrated rounds to destroy = 1280/200 = 7
FF Hit chance to KT at maximum range = 4.4% * 24 = 100%
FF reload speed = 8
FF Penetration at maximum range = 210
Penetration chance to FF -> KT = 210/375 = 56.0%
Expected Time to kill KT = 8 / 0.56 * 7 = 100s



JP4 can kills IS-2 faster than FF kills KT
Now admit that you are biased.


sorry.i mean the jackson vs kt..what we all talked about the last posts.....not the ff
7 Feb 2019, 14:11 PM
#64
avatar of Loren

Posts: 107



sorry.i mean the jackson vs kt..what we all talked about the last posts.....not the ff


there are no difference to Jackson

IS-2 Hit point = 1040
IS-2 Front armor = 375
IS-2 Target size penalty = 2600%
Damage of JP4 = 160
number of penetrated rounds to destroy = 1040/160 = 7
JP4 Hit chance to IS-2 at maximum range = 4% * 26 = 100%
JP4 reload speed = 4.3~5.2
JP4 Penetration at maximum range = 170
Penetration chance to JP4 -> IS-2 = 170/375 = 45.3%
Expected Time to kill IS-2 = 4.3~5.2 / 0.453 * 7 = 66.4s~80.4s


KT Hit point = 1280
KT Front armor = 375
KT Target size penalty = 2400%
Damge of M36 = 160
number of penetrated rounds to destroy = 1280/160 = 8
M36 Hit chance to KT at maximum range = 3.5% * 24 = 84%
M36 reload speed = 4.375~4.975
M36 reload delay = before 0.5 / after 1.125
M36 reload speed include delay = 6~6.6
M36 Penetration at maximum range = 220
Penetration chance to M36 -> KT = 220/375 = 58.7%
Expected Time to kill KT = 6~6.6 / 0.587 / 0.84 * 8 = 97.4~107.0s

Are you satisfied now?
7 Feb 2019, 14:12 PM
#65
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1220


thats why i suggested a t95 or other options for USF.

but jackson is by far the best TD you can get nondoc in this game vs armor. it trippled the effency from all other TDs.


its like you can get a vet 5 lmg ober while all other can get only 2 models pios.
Jackson is the best medium TD so? Mg42 is the best mg. Hmm maybe asymetrical balance ? Im ok with that i dont have rocket arty or premium medium tank or even nondoc heavy tank but my medium tank destroyer is the best in game. Whats wrong with that ? For me its fair enough.
7 Feb 2019, 14:25 PM
#66
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

Axis only players should realize without Jacksons USF has nothing to counter heavy armor. I wish the "up gun" feature for Sherman was non-doctrinal to avoid this problem.
7 Feb 2019, 14:35 PM
#67
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



and now calc the stats for:

- jp4 fighting at the move a IS2
- FF fighting at the move a KT

And dont forget to shout the mouth after you realize jp4 is shit


If you want to use JP4 against IS-2, you might just as well use AEC against KT.
JP4 is NOT meant to go up against IS-2. Panther is.
For someone with literally tousands of OKW games, you should know this by now, but then again, if you did realized that, maybe you wouldn't struggle for 50% win ratio so hard.
7 Feb 2019, 17:11 PM
#68
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

Jackson is the best medium TD so? Mg42 is the best mg. Hmm maybe asymetrical balance ? Im ok with that i dont have rocket arty or premium medium tank or even nondoc heavy tank but my medium tank destroyer is the best in game. Whats wrong with that ? For me its fair enough.


That the hardcounter to ALL axis tanks, hit the field before u even get in the range of so "super mighty axis heavy Tanks"

Its fair that u only have to build 2 Jacksons to rekt axis armor completly with 0 risk and effort?

Axis only players should realize without Jacksons USF has nothing to counter heavy armor. I wish the "up gun" feature for Sherman was non-doctrinal to avoid this problem.


Mines, At gun play, lots of very usefull doctrines, At inf... nothing right?

the prblem is that it requires skill to do all this .. and why should u do this when u can have a 0brain Problem solver?

At relaese the Jackson was nearly balancend. Its was a pure glascannon and now its take how many hits 5-6?

The Jackson has no downsight for USf... its a No Brainer like the STG upgrade for Volks.


7 Feb 2019, 18:08 PM
#69
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911


Well, you don't have to flank with Panthers, so why allies should with their top tier TDs?

You want to see TDs weaker?
Then scrap down that armor on axis armor.


Which TDs can the panther run straight at and win? And get by snares and AT guns too?
7 Feb 2019, 18:20 PM
#70
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2019, 13:21 PMLoren
more armor


Armour on a case mate TD is quite useless, I mean it's nice to have but penitration mobility or a turret is better.. Either you are fighting other TDs in which case armour doesn't do much, or it's fighting other mediums in which case if they are in range and you have messed up.

7 Feb 2019, 18:34 PM
#71
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260



Which TDs can the panther run straight at and win? And get by snares and AT guns too?


On the first part, all of them. It takes six shots to kill a Panther, four shots to kill a TD, and the Panther has similar reload times (~5 seconds) to the SU-85 and Jackson. It'll absolutely clobber the Firefly, which takes eight seconds to reload.

Yes, if it's defended by snare infantry and AT guns you can't do that, but the whole isolated comparision breaks down when you bring the full army in.
7 Feb 2019, 18:57 PM
#72
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2019, 18:34 PMLago


On the first part, all of them. It takes six shots to kill a Panther, four shots to kill a TD, and the Panther has similar reload times (~5 seconds) to the SU-85 and Jackson. It'll absolutely clobber the Firefly, which takes eight seconds to reload.

Yes, if it's defended by snare infantry and AT guns you can't do that, but the whole isolated comparision breaks down when you bring the full army in.

Or your Panther is missing the first few shots due needing to close in. Panther cant hit a barn while moving
7 Feb 2019, 19:33 PM
#73
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260


Or your Panther is missing the first few shots due needing to close in. Panther cant hit a barn while moving


The Panther takes moments to cross the range difference: the TD'll get one shot off at most. In CheatMod testing they seem to fire simultaneously as it takes the TD a moment to acquire a target.

Reload's the critical factor: the Jackson's got to land six pentrating shots before the Panther can land four.
7 Feb 2019, 19:38 PM
#74
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Armour on a case mate TD is quite useless, I mean it's nice to have but penitration mobility or a turret is better.. Either you are fighting other TDs in which case armour doesn't do much, or it's fighting other mediums in which case if they are in range and you have messed up.



For its role the jp4s armour is plenty a boon.the way I see it is its for mediums and more importantly enemy TDs, only the enemy TDs have too much pen so it mostly relies on its target size and ROF against them.

A turret would be better of course but it's armour against properly balanced allied TDs would be perfect vs what could return fire
7 Feb 2019, 19:38 PM
#75
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

okay lets return to tiger conversation. You should make other thread regarding your current conversation.
7 Feb 2019, 19:39 PM
#76
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2019, 18:34 PMLago


On the first part, all of them. It takes six shots to kill a Panther, four shots to kill a TD, and the Panther has similar reload times (~5 seconds) to the SU-85 and Jackson. It'll absolutely clobber the Firefly, which takes eight seconds to reload.

Yes, if it's defended by snare infantry and AT guns you can't do that, but the whole isolated comparision breaks down when you bring the full army in.


The isolated comparison does not break down. Being able to engage at a higher range means it is simple to keep out of the way of at guns and inf.

On the other hand having 50 range and having to chase down a kiting TD makes it difficult to avoid inf and TDs.

Because of this For the panther, it is advantageous to flank (unless it hits a mine).

Katov contends that because a 60 range TD doesn't have to flank means that a 50 range panther doesn't have to. And that ignores the above 60 range is a huge advantage.
7 Feb 2019, 19:45 PM
#77
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

It all comes to the simple fact that Tiger I was meant to be an elite heavy tank, but since that makes it OP, then it has to be nerfed, also its hardcounter are tanks aswell, therefore making the problem bigger, instead of using AT guns as a proper hardcounter.
Other tanks and TD should try to flank tiger and not the other way around. AT guns should pen frontally.
The Tiger I tank is awful and its oportunity window is rather bad or very small, risk/reward balance is straight out of the conversation
7 Feb 2019, 19:53 PM
#78
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

Tiger 1 is in sense upgraded pnz 4, as it effectively functions the same, with more cost
7 Feb 2019, 20:02 PM
#79
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Tiger 1 is in sense upgraded pnz 4, as it effectively functions the same, with more cost

2 PzIV perform far better than 1 PzV TigerI. And still they are cheaper. If that is the math to decide its buff/nerf... Tigers Need to be buffed a crapton to become cost effective

Edit: im taking account opportunity cost/loose cost/risk in investment/CP costs/risk in floating resources to get a TigerI/efficiency against other tanks/frontal armour and target size.
Tigers have good acc, but thats that.
7 Feb 2019, 20:11 PM
#80
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

The Tiger's a generalist: its penetration values are a hair below dedicated tank destroyers, and its Vet 0 main gun AoE is comparable to the HE rounds Sherman.

Yes, the Panther outclasses it as a tank killer, but if you want an efficient tank killer, get a Panther! You get the Tiger instead of the Panther for the same reason you get the P4 instead of the StuG: you want a unit that can fight off enemy armour while still inflicting manpower bleed.

If you keep the Tiger in your base and only roll it out for tank battles, it's not going to pay itself back. You need it on the front lines taking pot shots at infantry.

Think of it like a slower, tougher Pershing.
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