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Do volks need some nerf? If so, how?

1 Oct 2018, 13:16 PM
#81
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273



do u mean the 10 games would have a relvant statistik impact? maybe the player was better trained with other factions? maybe there was no luck from RNG on their side??

you can loose 10games...but the next 90 games u win. When you stop count after the first 10 games..yeah...you are rigth..the need buffs. but if u would look on a relevanz game number,..you would see: they are ok.

but ..maybe u troll around like every post.


Well, in this case, the relevant number of match-up possibilities for statistical analysis has been defined by the search space of the GCS brackets and thus the total number of games. Even if you normalised out the picking choices and the faction matchup you'd get similar win rates values. They underline how certain factions simply did better than others. You can talk to Siphon X about this, but he did his number-crunching correctly. Have a look at the sources: https://www.coh2.org/news/81260/gcs2-game-stats-with-siphon-x
1 Oct 2018, 13:19 PM
#82
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Oct 2018, 12:50 PMVipper


I clearly said if ostheer prove to be superior after the revamp patch and that faction should meet halfway. The reason I am saying that is that units have been buffed continuously and soon there will be little time for superior tactics to have a real affect on fights.

The benchmark need to be 1 faction not three, it becomes way too complicated if ones attempts to use more than 1 faction as the benchmark. Ostheer used to be benchmark and it makes sense to become the benchmark once more, in addition they are the best design faction that requires the use of different units.

If I had to touch the Ostheer I would start with better redesign of commanders, by removing OP combinations of abilities.

But that is all my personal opinion.


So..... ost is a benchmark.
Soviets and OKW line up to it as proven during CGS2.
USF and UKF are below by a wide margin as proven during CGS2.

And your solution is to nerf 3 in line and balanced factions instead of fixing 2, which are lacking in obvious places?

Where is a logic in that?
1 Oct 2018, 13:21 PM
#83
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273



So..... ost is a benchmark.
Soviets and OKW line up to it as proven during CGS2.
USF and UKF are below by a wide margin as proven during CGS2.

And your solution is to nerf 3 in line and balance factions instead of fix 2, which are lacking in obvious places?

Where is a logic in that?


I agree that it is the constant nerfing of UKF that definitely killed the faction. I don't believe that nerfing other factions (in this case, Volks) down to UKF levels is the solution - it's UKF that needs buffing.

There's no blanket solution for balancing. I bet that a neural network could solve this whole balancing issue by feeding it the whole game balance in numbers as input, but it'd come with a bland output of a perfectly balanced solution that is no fun to play. It is the little imperfections and asymmetry that makes the game stand out.

I also think it is a bit silly logic to propose to nerf 3 factions in line to solve the problems of one..
1 Oct 2018, 13:50 PM
#84
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

Maybe the brits player should pick the right commander: Commando Regiment

which had a winchange from 50%!

so its totally ok to lose, when u pick not the meta commander.

deal with it.
1 Oct 2018, 13:58 PM
#85
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


So..... ost is a benchmark.
Soviets and OKW line up to it as proven during CGS2.
USF and UKF are below by a wide margin as proven during CGS2.

And your solution is to nerf 3 in line and balanced factions instead of fixing 2, which are lacking in obvious places?

Where is a logic in that?

Read more carefully the logic is explained in my post already. My suggestion was not nerf the 3 faction pls do not put words in my mouth.

Ostheer was the benchmark, no faction appears to be the benchmark anymore since unit seem to balanced around other unit across the factions.
1 Oct 2018, 14:14 PM
#86
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273

Maybe the brits player should pick the right commander: Commando Regiment

which had a winchange from 50%!

so its totally ok to lose, when u pick not the meta commander.

deal with it.


The data set shows that out of 45 games, Commando Regiment was picked 8 times (18%), and it won 4 of their games (50%); it's ridiculously low. You could take the stats and do a t-test to find out which UKF commander in the GCS is considered as meta, but anyone can conclude by merely looking at the UKF meta tables that no UKF commanders stands out as overall winner (as opposed to Soviets Guard Rifle/Guard Motor for instance).
1 Oct 2018, 16:28 PM
#87
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

is was picked 8 times...11times was the most commander pick...but Commando Regiment had the highest win chance. so pick the right commander and have a 50% chance to win. Where is the problem now??
1 Oct 2018, 17:24 PM
#88
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

It's way more interesting seeing people who have "main" factions for several tournaments in a row, suddenly had to change them (adapt) in order to win.
1 Oct 2018, 19:53 PM
#89
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Maybe the brits player should pick the right commander: Commando Regiment

which had a winchange from 50%!

so its totally ok to lose, when u pick not the meta commander.

deal with it.


If you advocate picking a commander to counter a stock unit, you reinforce one of the two points - either non doctrinal unit in question is overpowered to the point where doctrine is needed to stand up to it, or units/faction it goes against is underpowered and require buffs.

Regardless of which way you pick, you are underminig your own argument, while reinforcing argument that certain factions are underpowered against OKW or volks are just op.
1 Oct 2018, 20:04 PM
#90
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Oct 2018, 11:22 AMgbem
the best solution is simply to buff riflemen and IS and retain the fairly good balance between OST OKW and SOV by not nerfing any of their core units...


No that's only the "best" solution based on the assumption that infintry is the reason why UKF and usf are underperforming.
1 Oct 2018, 21:10 PM
#91
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

all games i watched showed one thing:

not one faction rolfstomp the other in the ground so we could say its OP.
mostly games took a while to win..there was no game where you could see: the player makes no failure ...but had no chance to win.

the most wins was based on failes trough the game...false decisions and less micro.

there is no way a match where we could see that one faction has so much needs of a buff or a nerf.

proof me wrong!


Considering both OKW and OST have 60%+ winrate against USF and UKF. I'd say you are wrong.
1 Oct 2018, 21:14 PM
#92
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Oct 2018, 13:58 PMVipper

Read more carefully the logic is explained in my post already. My suggestion was not nerf the 3 faction pls do not put words in my mouth.

Ostheer was the benchmark, no faction appears to be the benchmark anymore since unit seem to balanced around other unit across the factions.


Would Sov be the allied benchmark then since both OKW and OST have around a 50% winrate?

Also I feel like if you fix Mobile Defense (which is happening next patch right?) OST will be very balanced.

Similarly I find SOV and OKW balanced well enough to not need sweeping adjustments. UKF and USF have issues hopefully fixed soon/eventually.
1 Oct 2018, 23:34 PM
#93
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Would Sov be the allied benchmark then since both OKW and OST have around a 50% winrate?

It is far simpler to use one benchmark and not two. First one decides how strong Ostheer (as an example) need to be. Then one balances all allied faction vs Ostheer. Finally one balance OKW vs all allied factions.


Also I feel like if you fix Mobile Defense (which is happening next patch right?) OST will be very balanced.

Similarly I find SOV and OKW balanced well enough to not need sweeping adjustments. UKF and USF have issues hopefully fixed soon/eventually.

Well imo there some Commanders that are problematic have access to a combination of abilities that they should not have like powerful infantry weapon upgrades, super heavy tanks and powerful off map.

I will bring 2 as an example there others:
Jaeger Armor Doctrine
Combining Reconnaissance Overflight/Stuka Bombing Strike/Elefant Tank Destroyer. This combination should not be allowed.

Lightning War Doctrine
Combining Jaeger Light Infantry/Stuka Close Air Support/Tiger Tank This combination should not be allowed.

On their own this abilities might be balanced but the combination is not.

About mobile defense, I am not sure if the "fix" is in the right direction since AI and AT call-in vehicles like the Puma and C.PzIV again should not be allowed to be in the same commander.
1 Oct 2018, 23:41 PM
#94
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Oct 2018, 23:34 PMVipper

It is far simpler to use one benchmark and not two. First one decides how strong Ostheer (as an example) need to be. Then one balances all allied faction vs Ostheer. Finally one balance OKW vs all allied factions.


I will bring 2 as an example there others:
Jaeger Armor Doctrine
Combining Reconnaissance Overflight/Stuka Bombing Strike/Elefant Tank Destroyer. This combination should not be allowed.

Lightning War Doctrine
Combining Jaeger Light Infantry/Stuka Close Air Support/Tiger Tank This combination should not be allowed.



I agree that these combinations are a little crazy, g43s, at air support, and a tiger tank is a little excessive in a single doctrine. I cant speak for Jaeger armor since i havent used it in a long time, but that kit seems a little loaded also.
2 Oct 2018, 12:04 PM
#95
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243



If you advocate picking a commander to counter a stock unit, you reinforce one of the two points - either non doctrinal unit in question is overpowered to the point where doctrine is needed to stand up to it, or units/faction it goes against is underpowered and require buffs.

Regardless of which way you pick, you are underminig your own argument, while reinforcing argument that certain factions are underpowered against OKW or volks are just op.


where did u find this info, that UKF need a special commander to counter nondoc units? did the axis player not picking their commanders? did they fight without?

Tell us...which nondoc OKW unit cant be countert by UKF? volks? comon...rakten? haha..funny. luchs? Puma? u get a AEC + AT gun for this job.

maybu u should play more than 20 games with UKF...to tell us something about them.
2 Oct 2018, 13:56 PM
#96
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2018, 05:33 AMzerocoh
Volks do need a rebalance on their vet. At vet 3 they are at peak performance, and it is not hard to vet it.

also, volks get too much free shit. Sandbags, Flame nade, infiltration, bunkers, s-mines, faust + weapon upgrade that is straight up better in all situations.

volks on their own are pretty shit, but they get all kinds of support, meanwhile rifles have to do everything by themselves, and are MUCH more expensive.

Edit: forgot to say that they get so much great synergy with commanders abilities like for the fatherland and valiant assault. No other factions have this.


===========

They used to get 2x Panzershrek that they could set aside to regain their AI :)

Just joking. That's the SturmPioneer who can do that with their mine detector.
But for real, Volks used to be able to get a Panzershrek (Also they couldn't get STG44s)
- Players screamed and howled at the perceived nerf :)
- Also the vet they got from the PzShrek meant they were lv 5 vet in under 30 seconds :)

I'm a soviet Fanboi, and even I don't think they need a nerf (Volks) Just learn to play
them yourself. Stop doing the mono faction thing.
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