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The Dilemma with Paratroopers

14 Sep 2018, 21:55 PM
#1
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2313

Disclaimer: this is mostly from memory, so if anyone has hard stats that say otherwise, please correct me.

The whole problem with paratroopers (IMO) lies with their received accuracy. They have a target size of 1, which isn't horrendous, but is larger than pretty much every other unit (axis and allied) on the field by the time they come (3cp) including even your mainline infantry. Even freaking conscripts at this point are more survivable with vet (IIRC). They also don't get RA buffs until vet3, which hurts their scaling a fair amount.

This is all balanced and fair for the 1919 upgrade, but the reason it's a "dilemma" is because the thompson upgrade is nearly useless, especially considering that rangers also have thompsons and are much more durable, making them all around better. Make paratrooper RA better, though, and you make them too OP with the 1919 upgrade, as a six man squad with lmgs that is also fairly durable would be too much.

Instead, giving thompson paras some other utility like decent camouflage (like commandos have, assuming stormtroopers ever get the same thing) would go a long way to helping them. Even just a smoke grenade or sprint would make them able to fill their role much better. Another option would be to give them an ability like the coh1 british commandos had that popped a smoke grenade and gave them temporary camo, but shared a cooldown with their grenade.

However, I think having bona fide camouflage with the thompson upgrade is the best option. They are supposed to be a unit that can harass behind enemy lines, but they have nothing to aid in that besides reinforcement beacons, which, while very useful, aren't any good if you can't hide away or safely disengage from enemy troops. Either of those camouflage options would go a long way to improving their useability, allowing them to ambush other units to compensate for their large RA.

One might think, "Wait, wouldn't a six man squad with 4 thompsons put out too much dps to be given any sort of camo?", but every other faction besides USF has access to some unit that can utilize camouflage to perform in this manner. Ostheer has stormtroopers, brits have commandos, soviets have partisans, and okw have fallschirmjagers. If you run through all those units, all have qualities that are analogous to thompson paratroopers' performance:

Commandos are five man squads with smaller RAs than paras and have amazing close range dps as well as an ambush bonus sprint, and the light gammon bomb.

Stormtroopers have an even smaller RA to make up for being four men and have 4 stgs (when upgraded) with tactical assault and bundled nades (revamp patch would give them 4 mp40s with better close range dps but less mid/far dps, more like commando stens) and can be called in from buildings (of dubious usefulness now but much better with mp40s right out the gate as in the revamp patch.

Fallschirmjagers have fg42s, which (I believe) have the best overall dps curve out of all the weapons mentioned here and still perform well in close range, as well as a smaller RA to compensate for being four men, bundled nades, and a DOT/slow/smoke chemical grenade.

Partisans are a bit of an outlier, are at least somewhat cheap and spammable and come out of buildings with smgs (I think; I've never even used them) and have an at variant. They're also soviets, so less man-for-man performance is to be expected.


So the only thing that really sets paratroopers apart is that they have 6 men but die much faster to compensate.
14 Sep 2018, 22:18 PM
#2
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Thompson paras are build exclusively to use the ability that increases the damage output of their thompsons, providing very easy wipes. This is what compensates for all their drawbacks.
14 Sep 2018, 22:36 PM
#3
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2313

Thompson paras are build exclusively to use the ability that increases the damage output of their thompsons, providing very easy wipes. This is what compensates for all their drawbacks.

I guess that's true, but that's just so odd and situational, and maybe a little cheesy. Stormtroopers also have the same ability and have camo (thompsons do it a little better, but still).
14 Sep 2018, 22:49 PM
#4
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 185

I have to say I don't think this is much of a problem. A lot of the sites for DPS curves and the like seem to be outdated or gone, but I seem to remember the Thompson having ~20dps at close range, and the para carbine having 10. A squad of paras with Thompsons has the highest close-range DPS in the game by a pretty good amount. Even mid-range they give most squads a run for their money because of the Thompsons' extremely generous damage curve. Between that and the damage boost ability, I don't think they need RA bonuses.

Rangers get .8 RA and (bizarrely) .9 received damage. With one man less, they're only a little more durable and have a bit less damage than paras.


I think it's a little odd that other elite squads get their close-range weapons for free, though. There's not loads of consistency as far as weapon upgrades go.


This is at least fairly up to date:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=0
14 Sep 2018, 22:52 PM
#5
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Cheesy or not, thanks to that ability, they have their own place among usf units. They are pretty much in the ballanced state: not part of the meta but powerful enough to create effective builds. Of course, they can be redesigned to some other purpose, but question is whether it is worth to fix what is not broken.
14 Sep 2018, 23:15 PM
#6
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 817 | Subs: 1

So I disagree with your post. The large justification why is seen in a few of your key points.

The first of these is that rangers are better. While not objectively false, many would say that paratroopers are better, with the key being tactical movement and the extra man. The extra man means both an extra carbine and an extra man that can be lost before you start cutting into the thompson DPS. Paras can lose 2 effective models (2 models at 1.0 RA) before theyre on only their thompson models left. Rangers can lose 1.25 effective models (1 model at .8 RA). For paras you lose your first thompson at 3 effective models in, and for rangers 2.5 effective models. This balance doesn't equalize until the last thompson/model, giving paras a really noticeable edge in DPS loss - the main difference between the two besides paras having more abilities as even their vet is basically identical.

The next issue is your comparison between the 1919 upgrade and the thompsons. It's almost entirely subjective, so I'll just say that the thompson is definitely the preferred upgrade of the two at the top level. The point I'm trying to make is that people would probably say that 1919 paras are less useful than thompson paras, and I think your suggestions are skewed in an unnecessary direction because of it.

On that, your suggestions give them utility and power in a role that people were not using them in (I'm primarily referencing Dave with all of this by the way). Paras simply have insane raw DPS - roughly 20% more than shocks at point blank, all while having significantly more generous DPS curve and tactical movement. Paras are mainly used for retreat path wipes, they're usually not the unit forcing the retreat. They're the second part of a one-two punch, and I think sprint would turn them into more of a haymaker. This is fine, but I think they operate as they should
within their current niche.

Drawing from the previous point about DPS, I think giving them camo when they have THAT much DPS is indeed a bad idea. Paras actually are a different level than Ostheer storm troopers, and British commandos. As for partisans, paras have about 10 partisan models worth of DPS...
Falls are kind of a unit that don't belong in this category IMO. Their DPS curve can be simplified down to that of a super bolt action rifle. They have that same lacking moving performance too. The thing about most ambush units is that they either:
1. Let the enemy get closer, so that they can get into their (relative to the other squad theyre facing) preferred range and win the engagement. This is what partisans have to do since it's the only way they can win a fight. Their low DPS at all ranges means that they're not going to get a wipe.
2. Let the enemy get closer so that they can maximize their own DPS. This is done regardless of what range your enemy's squad prefers to be, because you just want a wipe. Commandos and storm troopers have high enough maximum DPS to do this.

The thing is that falls fall into neither of these two categories for AI ambush units. They don't want or need their enemies to get close because they have a rifle profile (meaning that close range is usually favorable for the enemy relative to long range), and because they can already win long range fights. They don't have the raw DPS to wipe squads on their ambush either. Also, their effective durability still kind of sucks - it's less than that of volks. Point is, I don't think they should be in the comparison for stealth units.

Edit: Giving this post a conclusion/tl;dr: paras have a niche that they perform fairly well in as-is. I think that any suggestions to change them should keep their current role in mind, and whether or not they should be given the ability to act in another role (either in replacement or addition). Personally, I'm not quite convinced by your suggestions and the reasonings.
14 Sep 2018, 23:16 PM
#7
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 817 | Subs: 1


Rangers get .8 RA and (bizarrely) .9 received damage.

Source on the .9 received damage?
14 Sep 2018, 23:22 PM
#8
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1222 | Subs: 1


Source on the .9 received damage?


Not sure about the source but it's legit.
Rangers take reduced damage, which is why at Vet3 they like from The Matrix, practially Bullet-Proof.

On topic, I can say giving the Thompson Upgrade something like the lower RA Volks with MP40s receive would be good, but it would make it the prefered upgrade. Thompsons to deep flank and wipe stuff without any RNG involved just fits the USF plan so well. Rifles being so good all game long is the reason you don't see Paratroopers, also considering only Airborne gets the Thompson Upgrade, which is usually a latepick for the P47s and Pathfinder scouting.
I do love using the Paratrooper Dodge Bulletin to equalize them with Riflemen.
14 Sep 2018, 23:33 PM
#9
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 817 | Subs: 1



Not sure about the source but it's legit.

And so it is... that honestly ruins basically everything I said about the durability comparison.

For 16 damage rifles, thats an extra 20% durability, so then they're shock levels of durability per man...
14 Sep 2018, 23:35 PM
#10
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 2313

Cheesy or not, thanks to that ability, they have their own place among usf units. They are pretty much in the ballanced state: not part of the meta but powerful enough to create effective builds. Of course, they can be redesigned to some other purpose, but question is whether it is worth to fix what is not broken.

Maybe. Airborne could use some timing or ability adjustments or something though to make the commander more useful as a whole too. I still think that paras would have a lot more to offer as a stealth harrassment unit, even if they to lose a thompson or the ability, because it would help round out the roster in a much better way than "retreat-wiping unit".
15 Sep 2018, 00:01 AM
#11
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1222 | Subs: 1


And so it is... that honestly ruins basically everything I said about the durability comparison.

For 16 damage rifles, thats an extra 20% durability, so then they're shock levels of durability per man...


Rangers are insane, I'm always puzzled why they don't see more use, when they are in the most popular USF Premium Commander.

Triple Bazooka Rangers should be the Meta!
15 Sep 2018, 00:15 AM
#12
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 185

I think that Rangers and Paras are a little too similar. I don't know exactly how to change them; just wanted to mention that.
15 Sep 2018, 00:27 AM
#13
avatar of CobaltX105

Posts: 69

Paratroopers would benefit greatly if they could actually be deployed behind the lines, but accomplishing this is difficult when you're intended manner of dropping them (Pathfinder Beacons) can't actually be put there because the Pathfinders themselves can't get there.

If Pathfinders could infiltrate via buildings and set up beacons where they could cause trouble, Paratroopers could peform their disruption role a lot better.
15 Sep 2018, 01:31 AM
#14
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 725


Triple Bazooka Rangers should be the Meta!


bazookas are useless, even if you could carry 5 of them...
15 Sep 2018, 01:41 AM
#15
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 817 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2018, 01:31 AMzerocoh
even if you could carry 5 of them...

...I'll ask Relic and see what can be done... :romeoMug:
15 Sep 2018, 02:10 AM
#16
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 5666 | Subs: 2

This is at least fairly up to date:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=0


Completely outdated.

Use this:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/36347/cruzz-s-the-more-you-know/post/672650

Download it and open it up with any browser.
15 Sep 2018, 02:35 AM
#20
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1222 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Sep 2018, 01:31 AMzerocoh


bazookas are useless, even if you could carry 5 of them...


Only if you try to run into tanks to scare them off or even kill them like the old Volkshreck blob, if you can flank they do have really high dps, Paratroopers even do more damage with them!
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