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Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

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31 Aug 2018, 16:13 PM
#261
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

How about swapping the leFH from Overwatch with a panzerwerfer.

It could be incredibly OP if used to finish off retreating squads who have set off a booby trap, but it does mean they'd get some very useful mobile artillery that does really good scatter damage.



Why would you want a panzerwerfer on a faction that has stuka which is objectively better?

It's like Osttruppen Supply Drop ability that drops you MG34+Pak for a higher overall cost than MG42+Pak would cost you normal way.

Giving Werfer to OKW is like giving MG34 to OST
31 Aug 2018, 17:02 PM
#262
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 10:52 AMKirrik


Stop acting like Vipper and avoid subject

Osttruppen have better scaling into late game than Cons as of now, they dont need anything else, especially HE nades for a defensive unit



LOL. You're the one avoiding the subject. "Better scaling?" What is that even supposed to mean? Do Ostruppen have better vet then cons? Vet3 cons have the same RA as vet3 grens. Vet3 ostruppen have around the same target size as vet0 riflemen (0.97). I've presented facts that riflemen can afford to charge ostruppen 100% of the time even behind sandbags. They are only successful around 70% when charging grens. Cons can win half the time when charging ostruppen. At midrange cons will almost always beat ostruppen. Its only at max range that Ostruppen can fight cons and riflemen. Ostruppen are supposed to outtrade enemy mainline infantry in the early game because in the mid-late game they drop like flies and are mp sinks. However that early game advantage is quite small and always have to stick to damn cover.

I'm presenting facts, you're using empty words like "scaling."
31 Aug 2018, 17:20 PM
#263
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

Here is a fact: Osttruppen cost less than cons and have lower reinforcement costs while having a late game LMG upgrade.

I'm not avoiding anything you're just incapable of comprehending simple facts laid out in front of you.

They are supposed to "stick to damn cover". They are cheapest unit in game, what else do you want of them aside of capping points and stalling enemy infantry?
31 Aug 2018, 17:24 PM
#264
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2237 | Subs: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 12:56 PMKirrik
PTRS conscripts ? Worse version of Penals.


Thanks for raising my point. :)

Relic creativity > community patch members creativity

Nobody asked about Penals PRTS in the past (except some old pros who vanished the communnity already) and we got this.

Looks like we will get the same results after this commander revamp.


Ppl asked about a commander with Shocks Troops and T34-85 (Counter-attack tatics was a good example for a rework), but we are getting one more commander with shock troops.

GG


jump backJump back to quoted post27 Aug 2018, 22:04 PMAndy_RE
...


@Andy and Relic,

Stop outsourcing your own product.
31 Aug 2018, 17:37 PM
#265
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

TBH the whole Conscript PTRS thing goes even further

Conscript PTRS originally behaved similar to Guard PTRS, meaning Conscripts *ORIGINALLY* didnt trade their AI for AT, they just acted like British Boys AT rifle section - a unit that has both AT and AI, they also kept their Molotov.

I'm not sure who screwed that particular part up, but after rework Conscripts got their Guard-like PTRS replaced by worthless Penal PTRS, which is good only against light vehicles, then they got their molotov removed (Boys section has their grenade still in place)and then PTRS deflection damage was nerfed... as result this infantry upgrade that supposed to make Conscripts good at both AT and AI turned into a bad downgrade of Penal squad, which ultimately made this doctrine worse.

Ironic but I agree this kind of reworks need serious oversight by whatever remaining staff Relic has.

I can already see Overwatch doctrine being a disaster-tier OP with howitzer and flares at same time
31 Aug 2018, 17:46 PM
#266
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 17:20 PMKirrik
Here is a fact: Osttruppen cost less than cons and have lower reinforcement costs while having a late game LMG upgrade.

I'm not avoiding anything you're just incapable of comprehending simple facts laid out in front of you.

They are supposed to "stick to damn cover". They are cheapest unit in game, what else do you want of them aside of capping points and stalling enemy infantry?


They get lmg AFTER 20 MINS. And the lmg isn't even a gren lmg. And ostruppen are in less than a quarter of docs, while ppsh are in about a quarter of docs. Allied infantry upgrades can occur as early as 5mins. Lower reinforce costs are set off by inferior RA at all vet levels. Who's the person "incapable" of comprehending simple facts now?
31 Aug 2018, 17:47 PM
#267
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3141 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 17:24 PMnigo


Thanks for raising my point. :)

Relic creativity > community patch members creativity

Nobody asked about Penals PRTS in the past (except some old pros who vanished the communnity already) and we got this.

Looks like we will get the same results after this commander revamp.


Ppl asked about a commander with Shocks Troops and T34-85 (Counter-attack tatics was a good example for a rework), but we are getting one more commander with shock troops.

GG




@Andy and Relic,

Stop outsourcing your own product.


Dude chill, the game is at it's end of the "5 year plan" and probably support, plus they're already doing this so there's no point in stopping it mid way, let's just help them with feedback so they can hopefully get something good out there for probably the last time, but honestly I hope not.

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 17:37 PMKirrik
TBH the whole Conscript PTRS thing goes even further

Conscript PTRS originally behaved similar to Guard PTRS, meaning Conscripts *ORIGINALLY* didnt trade their AI for AT, they just acted like British Boys AT rifle section - a unit that has both AT and AI, they also kept their Molotov.

I'm not sure who screwed that particular part up, but after rework Conscripts got their Guard-like PTRS replaced by worthless Penal PTRS, which is good only against light vehicles, then they got their molotov removed (Boys section has their grenade still in place)and then PTRS deflection damage was nerfed... as result this infantry upgrade that supposed to make Conscripts good at both AT and AI turned into a bad downgrade of Penal squad, which ultimately made this doctrine worse.

Ironic but I agree this kind of reworks need serious oversight by whatever remaining staff Relic has.

I can already see Overwatch doctrine being a disaster-tier OP with howitzer and flares at same time


The pooch was screwed by a lot of things and a lot of people, but there is no point in looking for blame, we're all people, we make mistakes, it's natural.

So again, let's just help them out with feedback and get this over with.

When official support for the game ends, maybe they will have the better judgement and release some full fledged modding tools and transfer any further support over to the community as many other games have, since I believe that that would be the best course of action rather than having a skeleton crew around just for the sake of it.
31 Aug 2018, 17:48 PM
#268
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573



They get lmg AFTER 20 MINS. And the lmg isn't even a gren lmg. And ostruppen are in less than a quarter of docs, while ppsh are in about a quarter of docs. Allied infantry upgrades can occur as early as 5mins. Lower reinforce costs are set off by inferior RA at all vet levels. Who's the person "incapable" of comprehending simple facts now?


You are. You're still not comprehending my point, or entire point of Osttruppen. You want them to be something they are never meant to be - better conscripts.
31 Aug 2018, 17:53 PM
#269
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 17:48 PMKirrik


You are. You're still not comprehending my point, or entire point of Osttruppen. You want them to be something they are never meant to be - better conscripts.


That's why they're lacklustre, because they're not "better" conscripts, they don't even match cons, in fact they're inferior. Why go for a doctrine if the doctrinal units don't provide any value? They aren't great early game and Ostruppen are the infantry that scale poorly as they drop like flies late game. Doctrinal units are supposed to be better than non-doc units in some way but when ostruppen have to be at MAX RANGE to win an engagement vs a unit only 40mp more, and the fact that u always need cover, it's not worth picking a doctrine for.
31 Aug 2018, 17:57 PM
#270
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573



That's why they're lacklustre, because they're not "better" conscripts, they don't even match cons, in fact they're inferior. Why go for a doctrine if the doctrinal units don't provide any value? They aren't great early game and Ostruppen are the infantry that scale poorly as they drop like flies late game. Doctrinal units are supposed to be better than non-doc units in some way but when ostruppen have to be at MAX RANGE to win an engagement vs a unit only 40mp more, and the fact that u always need cover, it's not worth picking a doctrine for.


They dont match cons because they are cheaper than cons. Still arent getting it? Cons are worthless in late game and useful only to cap points and stall infantry. Thats exactly role of osttrupen. You use them to build trenches then you put them inside and stall while your support weapons shred enemy. They are not supposed to be "good" they are supposed to be cannon fodder to hold your opponent back away from support weapons.
31 Aug 2018, 18:04 PM
#271
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 17:57 PMKirrik


They dont match cons because they are cheaper than cons. Still arent getting it? Cons are worthless in late game and useful only to cap points and stall infantry. Thats exactly role of osttrupen. You use them to build trenches then you put them inside and stall while your support weapons shred enemy. They are not supposed to be "good" they are supposed to be cannon fodder to hold your opponent back away from support weapons.


I never said I wan't base stats to be buffed. I said I wanted them to get a grenade at vet 2. Ostruppen are SUPPOSED to punch above their weight in the early game but they're not anymore after the initial timing nerf and reinforce time nerf. The initial engagement for Ostruppen in EXTREMELY important as Ostruppen are like light vehicles, they have a short window of effectiveness. With poor RA vet, they are more expensive cannon fodder than cons late game. Cons have way better RA. Lmg doesn't make ostruppen more survivable.
31 Aug 2018, 18:07 PM
#272
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

Grenade for a dirt-cheap defensive squad is not a reasonable idea, especially for a squad that meant to be fighting at distance.
Not even PPSh cons get HE grenade and you want osttrupen to have one when they already have *free* panzerfausts?
31 Aug 2018, 18:33 PM
#275
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 18:15 PMKirrik


This is pure offtopic already but its Soviets who have highest teching costs to their tanks. Thats excluding Molotovs and AT nade. And no, you cant compare Molotov with HE nade, they are made for different things.
Heck not even Grens get HE nades because they are meant to fight enemy at range and you want cannon fodder replacement of Grens to have one?


Never stated what kind of grenade because I don't care. I just want something to throw at the enemy. If you want to give ostrup a rifle grenade instead of HE, that's even better, more allied noobs will complain about how impossible it is to avoid the supposedly zero timer rifle grenade.
31 Aug 2018, 18:36 PM
#276
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Can we pls return on feedback that has to do with the current patch changes, instead of unproductive bashing and irrelevant things?
31 Aug 2018, 18:41 PM
#277
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

Question for clarification:

The soviet booby trap and the and the okw (and now also ost) one are different. The OKW booby trap is non-doctrinal (obers), costs 50 munitions, causes 160 damage, its area of effect is 0.5-2-4 (near-far) and the damage multipliers are 1-0.4-0.2 (near-far).

With the new stats of the soviet booby trap (tied to a commander) the okw equivalent will not only outperform it in damage at any distance, its radius within which it can squad wipe is double that of the new booby trap. Are there any plans to adjust the okw(/ost) booby trap as well to bring it in line in terms of performance?

Critique:

We had the precision shot for artillery in the game for soviets and it was a terrible design with the potential of just cheesy free squad wipes on capping squads. 50 range does little to mask the fact that this is a cheesy squad wipe ability trying to make its way back into the game.

For everything else, I need more games :)
31 Aug 2018, 18:50 PM
#278
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Question for clarification:

The soviet booby trap and the and the okw (and now also ost) one are different. The OKW booby trap is non-doctrinal (obers), costs 50 munitions, causes 160 damage, its area of effect is 0.5-2-4 (near-far) and the damage multipliers are 1-0.4-0.2 (near-far).

With the new stats of the soviet booby trap (tied to a commander) it will not only outperform it in damage at any distance, its radius within which it can squad wipe is double that of the new booby trap. Are there any plans to adjust the okw(/ost) booby trap as well to bring it in line in terms of performance?
...

In the patch the Soviet ability is superior in micro since it does not need infantry to set it up but inferior in damage.

All booby traps abilities would be allot better designed if the explosion turned incendiary and the left DOT fire.
31 Aug 2018, 18:56 PM
#279
avatar of sherlock
Patrion 14

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 18:50 PMVipper

In the patch the Soviet ability is superior in micro since it does not need infantry to set it up but inferior in damage.

All booby traps abilities would be allot better designed if the explosion turned incendiary and the left DOT fire.


The micro argument is a red herring. The ability could be given to engineers. The delta in damage is also of second nature. It's the instant kill radius that is pretty much the major culprit. There is also an argument to be made for the fact that one requires a doctrine and the other does not, this restraint itself, more than makes up for the alleged difference in micro since you're locking in a commander with little late game.

Last but not least, the question was directed at people familiar with the patch and who are able to provide insight into the thought process that lead to the decision and who may comment on whether the okw/ost booby trap is being looked at as well or not ;)

I had a crucial mistake in my sentence structure, where I forgot to point out which trap was compared to which. I have since corrected the mistake. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused.

Question for clarification:

The soviet booby trap and the and the okw (and now also ost) one are different. The OKW booby trap is non-doctrinal (obers), costs 50 munitions, causes 160 damage, its area of effect is 0.5-2-4 (near-far) and the damage multipliers are 1-0.4-0.2 (near-far).

With the new stats of the soviet booby trap (tied to a commander) the okw equivalent will not only outperform it in damage at any distance, its radius within which it can squad wipe is double that of the new booby trap. Are there any plans to adjust the okw(/ost) booby trap as well to bring it in line in terms of performance?

Critique:

We had the precision shot for artillery in the game for soviets and it was a terrible design with the potential of just cheesy free squad wipes on capping squads. 50 range does little to mask the fact that this is a cheesy squad wipe ability trying to make its way back into the game.

For everything else, I need more games :)
31 Aug 2018, 19:15 PM
#280
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


The micro argument is a red herring. The ability could be given to engineers.

And not taking into account how easy it is to use each ability is a simplification.
Also currently it is not given to engineers and even if it was having a engineer placing it "costs" less than having an ober placing it.


It's the instant kill radius that is pretty much the major culprit.

It is and axis booby traps should also be nerfed so they do not wipe squads, the fact that they not is probably due to an oversight or scope. (all-though jager are in scope)

That is why I have proposed that the damage be changed to incendiary doing less damage but slowing down the capture process.
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