Login

russian armor

Jackson nerf

PAGES (7)down
27 Apr 2018, 11:00 AM
#81
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 10:22 AMKatitof

...
Obviously, but if you are(using completely random, but not rare example), say rank 1200 brit, your opinion is that tommies and brens underperform. And VonIvan says they overperform.
Now, which opinion should we disregard here?
...

Quite simply test what they are saying and form an opinion of your own. One does not have to take the word others when one can test for himself.
27 Apr 2018, 11:21 AM
#82
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

It probably falls under both actually, depending how you classify "player A is not entitled to have an opinion because player A is not a highly ranked player". It is both an attack on the person's credibility, as well as a refutal of the "Player A is entitled to an opinion" argument, which is not what is being discussed.


When someone says they're "entitled to an opinion" what are they actually saying? If you take it literally it's completely absurd. There's no way to stop someone from having an opinion. You can prevent them from expressing it, sure. But preventing someone from having an opinion? The very notion is just silly. You might as well say you're entitled to think.

But when balancing the game you're not after people's opinions, you're after sound judgements of unit performance. And how do you decide who's judgement to trust?
27 Apr 2018, 11:30 AM
#83
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 11:00 AMVipper

Quite simply test what they are saying and form an opinion of your own. One does not have to take the word others when one can test for himself.


And this basic empyrical evidence will provide a support for the thesis that accuracy and correctness of opinion on the jubject is directly correlated to ones knowledge of the subject or in this case, skill as well therefore rank, which is an indicator of skill.

It does not mean top Players are always right, but rock bottom 4v4 players are quite often wrong in comparison.
27 Apr 2018, 11:35 AM
#84
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 11:21 AMLago


When someone says they're "entitled to an opinion" what are they actually saying? If you take it literally it's completely absurd. There's no way to stop someone from having an opinion. You can prevent them from expressing it, sure. But preventing someone from having an opinion? The very notion is just silly. You might as well say you're entitled to think.

But when balancing the game you're not after people's opinions, you're after sound judgements of unit performance. And how do you decide who's judgement to trust?

Once more you to do not have to trust someone. This is not court where someone credibility affects weather a court has take their testimony on event as true or not.

One can simply test what they are saying and see if they are right or not.

When one responds to claims about units with comments about ones play-card one turn a impersonal issues into a personal issue.

If my rank is higher than your will my comment be right and yours wrong?
jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 11:30 AMKatitof


And this basic empyrical evidence will provide a support for the thesis that accuracy and correctness of opinion on the jubject is directly correlated to ones knowledge of the subject or in this case, skill as well therefore rank, which is an indicator of skill.

It does not mean top Players are always right, but rock bottom 4v4 players are quite often wrong in comparison.

I can give you a very long list of things you got completely wrong. Will that make you stop spamming posts?

There is no direct correlation between knowledge of game stat and mechanics and rank. Else Mr.Smith would be rank in the Top ten.
jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 10:22 AMKatitof

...
Who's opinion should we listen to? Ullumulu or HelpingHans?
...

Actually Ullumulu did claim that PPSH conscripts were OP even when DBP was being tested and the balance team seems to have come to the same conclusion so they plan to nerf the PPSH (in a bad manner if you ask me).
27 Apr 2018, 11:44 AM
#85
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 11:35 AMVipper
Once more you to do not have to trust someone. This is not court where someone credibility affects weather a court has take their testimony on event as true or not.


Sure you do.

Take the claim, "the Soviet Sniper overperforms in high level 2v2."

I can't test this myself.

What I can do is ask a wide range of high level 2v2 players and see if their answers line up.
27 Apr 2018, 11:46 AM
#86
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 11:44 AMLago


Sure you do.

Take the claim, "the Soviet Sniper overperforms in high level 2v2."

I can't test this myself.

What I can do is ask a wide range of high level 2v2 players and see if their answers line up.

In this case you can simply watch as many replays of high level play with sniper as you can and judge for yourself.

But that would mean that sniper the sniper in not OP or UP, or that it did not need some sort of adjustment.

You are assuming that Top player are not biased.
27 Apr 2018, 11:49 AM
#87
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 10:22 AMKatitof


Who's opinion should we listen to? Ullumulu or HelpingHans?



Yeah..and that exactly shows the problem. I like Hans but he often makes emotional statements about balance. Statements that are often totally exaggerated. Which is why not everything Hans says is automatically right just because he is a top-class player.

In the same way something isn´t automatically wrong just because it comes from a noob. Unfortunately a big group of people on COH2.org doesn´t even try to come up with good points and just goes for "you are noob, you are wrong". IMO there should be forum rules against this. People need to get off their high horses. It´s pathetic how people who have never even achieved anything in COH2.org feel the need to put other down because they have better ranks.

There are lots of very good players who are very biased aswell, prime example would be Zarok. Who is working on the balance patch while basically writing "Axis UP. Nerf Allies" in every second threat.
27 Apr 2018, 12:27 PM
#88
avatar of CartoonVillain

Posts: 474

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 11:21 AMLago


When someone says they're "entitled to an opinion" what are they actually saying?


I mean they are allowed to have their opinion considered. Obviously they're allowed to express it.
27 Apr 2018, 12:48 PM
#89
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

What's wrong with someone expressing their opinion even if it is completely wrong and without any factual basis?

I mean... come on, most of times it is entertaining at least.
27 Apr 2018, 12:48 PM
#90
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 11:21 AMLago

...
When someone says they're "entitled to an opinion" what are they actually saying? ...

They are also saying that bulling someone for expressing their opinion is simply wrong (an undemocratical).
27 Apr 2018, 13:20 PM
#91
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

I mean they are allowed to have their opinion considered. Obviously they're allowed to express it.


How do you disallow someone from considering someone else's opinion? You can't. Most of the common rhetoric about opinions doesn't actually make any sense.

The reality is you can think what you like and that goes for everyone else too. As for expression, you can say what you want if you keep to the forum rules.

If you're using player feedback (even in part) to build a balance patch then you've got to account for everything that influences that feedback. That feedback is in part affected by the unit's actual performance but it's also influenced by other things. Personal bias, RNG and player skill level to name a few.

To gauge the unit's performance you've got to find a way to filter out these other things. The feedback of high skill players is most useful for filtering out the influence of player skill. It can still be biased which is why you listen to more than one player: if a large set of high skill players broadly agree on a unit then you can be fairly confident they're onto something.
27 Apr 2018, 13:29 PM
#92
avatar of CartoonVillain

Posts: 474

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 13:20 PMLago


How do you disallow someone from considering someone else's opinion?


By saying "This player sucks don't listen to him"?. And it's not about disallowing someone else from considering opinions it's about you yourself not listening to them.
27 Apr 2018, 13:39 PM
#93
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

By saying "This player sucks don't listen to him"?. And it's not about disallowing someone else from considering opinions it's about you yourself not listening to them.


If I respond to a comment with "This player sucks don't listen to him" I'm not preventing anyone from listening to them. I'd be expressing the opinion (in a rather crude way) that they shouldn't.

If someone responds to your post with "my rank is higher therefore I'm right" what difference does it make? Players who distrust your judgement on balance because your rank is too low will do so anyway. Players who agree with you based on the merits of your argument aren't going to change their minds on the basis of someone saying "lol what a noob."
27 Apr 2018, 13:44 PM
#94
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 13:39 PMLago


If I respond to a comment with "This player sucks don't listen to him" I'm not preventing anyone from listening to them. I'd be expressing the opinion (in a rather crude way) that they shouldn't.

If someone responds to your post with "my rank is higher therefore I'm right" what difference does it make? Players who distrust your judgement on balance because your rank is too low will do so anyway. Players who agree with you based on the merits of your argument aren't going to change their minds on the basis of someone saying "lol what a noob."

You are also being rude to someone you do not actually know for no good. Focus on what he is actually saying instead of who he is or what he does.

How would you feel if in real life there was someone walking around you and every time you tried to express your opinion started shouting to other "do not listen to him he sucks"?

Bulling someone because you do not agreed with his opinion is wrong, undemocratical and counter productive. If someone is so wrong it should be simple to come with a logical argument to respond to his reasoning.
27 Apr 2018, 14:01 PM
#95
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 13:44 PMVipper
You are also being rude to someone you do not actually know for no good. Focus on what he is actually saying instead of who he is.


If your balance assessment in any way draws on your own personal ingame experience then your assessment is influenced by your skill level.

Your rank is a measure of your skill level and your rank is therefore relevant as a measure of how reliable your balance assessment is.

If your balance assessment is in no way based on your ingame experience then your playercard isn't relevant.
27 Apr 2018, 14:34 PM
#96
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 14:01 PMLago


If your balance assessment in any way draws on your own personal ingame experience then your assessment is influenced by your skill level.

Your rank is a measure of your skill level and your rank is therefore relevant as a measure of how reliable your balance assessment is.

If your balance assessment is in no way based on your ingame experience then your playercard isn't relevant.

Rank is not a measure of skill level. It is as simple as that and thus rank is irrelevant. Currently Cruzz is not in the top 10 ten 1vs1 with any faction. Does that is his balance assessments less reliable with when he was?

Let me try to explain this to you with an example:
2 players start playing the game at the same time. Player A like competition so he check what the current meta is and learn who to play it.
Player B is player who likes to play a game and have fun and like to learn things. He check the stat of units and tries using all of them.

Obviously player A manages a higher ladder position but his opinion can hardly be considered better since his knowledge of the game is limited and he has not actually tried to see what thing work and do not work and why.
27 Apr 2018, 14:35 PM
#97
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 13:44 PMVipper


Bulling someone because you do not agreed with his opinion is wrong, undemocratical and counter productive. If someone is so wrong it should be simple to come with a logical argument to respond to his reasoning.


Yeah..and that´s why coh2 mods should take care of comments that put people down based on their ranks. I am pretty sure some time ago posts that said something like "playercard pls; ur ranks too bad; u are noob" etc got moderated. Not sure why it isn´t done anymore because it totally got out of hand.

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 14:34 PMVipper

Lets me try to explain this to you with an example: 2 players start playing the game at the same time. Player A like competition so he check what the current meta is and learn who to play it.
Player B is player who likes to play a game and have fun and like to learn things. He check the stat of units and tries using all of them.

Obviously player A manages a higher ladder position but his opinion can hardly be considered better since his knowledge of the game is limited and he has not actually tried to see what thing work and do not work and why.


Yeah. I made that point before. Very true for a lot of these wanna be pros that put people down based on their ranks on COH2.ORG.

Ironically the really good players don´t scoop that low.
27 Apr 2018, 14:36 PM
#98
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 14:34 PMVipper
Rank is not a measure of skill level. It is as simple as that and thus rank is irrelevant.


In that case we simply disagree on this.
27 Apr 2018, 14:40 PM
#99
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 14:36 PMLago


In that case we simply disagree on this.

I guess you are entitled to your opinion :)
27 Apr 2018, 14:41 PM
#100
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Apr 2018, 14:34 PMVipper

Rank is not a measure of skill level. It is as simple as that and thus rank is irrelevant.


- Appearance isn't everything!
- That's what ugly person would say.
PAGES (7)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

590 users are online: 590 guests
15 posts in the last 24h
50 posts in the last week
104 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44659
Welcome our newest member, Yourcounselling
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM