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russian armor

AT infantry for OKW?

7 Feb 2018, 18:38 PM
#61
avatar of dk828315

Posts: 88

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2018, 18:23 PMCptOps

Flakning is just wishful?idk about you buddy,but i usually able to flank tank just fine.Also Allies flank my KingTiger like pro with penal :'( ,it had nothing to do with how big the map is,flanking is a tactic.

I can flank if the map has things to block vision, otherwise it's pretty hard to pull off

Allies seems to be better at flanking vehicles because Axis tanks are generally slower that their Allies counterparts
7 Feb 2018, 18:48 PM
#62
avatar of CptOps

Posts: 90


I can flank if the map has things to block vision, otherwise it's pretty hard to pull off

Allies seems to be better at flanking vehicles because Axis tanks are generally slower that their Allies counterparts

Forgot.It may had something to do with me often using elite armor doctrine,so i got a free vehicles scan :P made it easier for me to flank Allies through the fog of war.
Trust me with the fog you can flank tank just fine.It is just that allies got early armor to follow it up with the infantry (example: penal) when Axis need to set up the flank with rakenwefer.
7 Feb 2018, 18:57 PM
#63
avatar of CptOps

Posts: 90

OKW need to play the combine arm shit to win vs allies since their unit can do 2 job at a time.You need keep you frontline infantry supported with AT,Tank so they can respond.OKW always lack the number,so you had to be aware of the map,and scare Allies back.
7 Feb 2018, 19:57 PM
#64
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2018, 18:32 PMCptOps

IDK which patch you been playing at but penal and rifles don't cost more then volk,now volk took way longer to reinforce once they veted.Also i see PTRS penetrated and KILLed a Panther tank want prove?


Idk what game you are playing, but volks cost 250 mp and reinforce for 25 mp a soldier from what i know.

Meanwhile, Rifles cost 280 mp to buy and 28 to reinforce 1 man.

Penals are 300 mp and 25 mp or so to reinforce? idk the latter for sure.



If Penals and Riflemen are less expensive while being reasonably superior to volksgrenadiers in most aspects, OKW would be dead earlygame.

(Why do volk reinforce slower when they have vet? since when is this a thing?)

On a sidenote: you lost a panther to PTRS(or someone else)? That's impressive in a bad way. Not that i wish to imply that it is impossible, but oh well.
7 Feb 2018, 20:09 PM
#65
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3091 | Subs: 2


I'm with them


The three musketeers it is.
7 Feb 2018, 23:04 PM
#66
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1038 | Subs: 1

I think some people forgot the volks with shreks could still deal with allied infantry. Therefore it was possible to see volks win engagements with a shrek, negating medium armor play while still being competitive in infantry engagements. Meanwhile for both Rifles, Tommies, and Penals adding AT to them had notable decreases to their AI capacity while not being as effective as Shreks against medium armor.

I do agree however it sometimes feels that the Strums take up way to many roles for OKW, the mix between repairs, mines, and early game assault troops on top of the handheld AT is a little overboard. Maybe making placing shreks on Obers and having to decide between the mg34 for infantry and shreks for AT would be better.
7 Feb 2018, 23:09 PM
#67
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

I think some people forgot the volks with shreks could still deal with allied infantry. Therefore it was possible to see volks win engagements with a shrek, negating medium armor play while still being competitive in infantry engagements.


By themselves volks couldn't win engagements, especially against the era of terminator 2x1919s rifles. And mediums could just sit at 40 range and kite for days or run them over like the crushwell
7 Feb 2018, 23:37 PM
#68
avatar of ClassyDavid

Posts: 424 | Subs: 2

To be honest I wouldn't mind if OKW got a squad equipped with duel anti-tank rifles that could apply a slight debuff that wasn't stackable to a vehicle they hit. Maybe slow them down slightly? Or have some utility based ability. Be different from other AT options but still workable against light vehicles and medium tanks with extra use coming from utility whatever that might be.
8 Feb 2018, 00:22 AM
#69
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

I think some people forgot the volks with shreks could still deal with allied infantry. Therefore it was possible to see volks win engagements with a shrek, negating medium armor play while still being competitive in infantry engagements. Meanwhile for both Rifles, Tommies, and Penals adding AT to them had notable decreases to their AI capacity while not being as effective as Shreks against medium armor.


True, although bazookas and panzerschrecks alike at that time were RNG sniper rifles. Volks were a bit unique in that their 5 levels of vet also gave them great accuracy for their panzerschrecks, and their panzerschrecks made it really easy to get to vet 5.

Plus as USF you always had your snare (after vet 1). OKW at the time didn't have a snare. People also forget that.

I do agree however it sometimes feels that the Strums take up way to many roles for OKW, the mix between repairs, mines, and early game assault troops on top of the handheld AT is a little overboard. Maybe making placing shreks on Obers and having to decide between the mg34 for infantry and shreks for AT would be better.


I've been preachin' this since '15.

Now that Obers are closer to Stormtroopers and Panzergrens a potentially earlier arrival might actually be seen as feasible.
8 Feb 2018, 04:35 AM
#70
avatar of 1337Cammy

Posts: 35 | Subs: 1



But zooka, piat, ptrs mainline inf is not cancer that totally nullifies lights and counters meds pretty well?


Those factions are not based around an invisible/house fortifying AT gun, which (if played correctly) can take out every medium armour simply by having a double Püppchen move to the correct position.
How about the Puma which can consistently penetrate mediums as an early game vehicle, as "one who outrange them all" with TD range?
Mines?
And that's only the early game stuff. (which I will relate to from now on)
Imagine, they also got a TD with TD range, a Puma for as a heavy tank brawler and so on...

Comparing single aspects of a faction while each faction is fundamentally different will always result in an "imbalanced" conclusion.

You have to see the faction gameplay as a whole.

USF and OKW: Zooks are quite inconsistent performer in midgame, while Schrecks can penetrate mediums and even heavy tanks quite consistantly, while Volks work way more consistantly with better vet scaling than riflemen, which become medium-close range only, incapable of coverfighting.
Based around the best DPS AT-Gun with lowest pen and highest angle.
Tank criple capable frontline infantery... I guess USF sounds really underwhelming in its' AT capabilities in early. Maybe that's why they are based around light vehicles/tanks to mirror light tank rushes, with zook backup, to work towards the jackson?

UKF: Piats are good and consistent performer, low accuracy on max range tho (like the Schreck), while their infantery provide no AT-criple capability. They either have to play around PIAT ammo investment, an AEC against earlies or an AT gun to close the AT-Gap to keep playing while OKW doesn't only have an invisible AT gun which can outplay everyone, skillindepended, but also have the capability of building Pumas, Mines and providing a Panzerfaust for everyone of this already consistent AT squads.

Sov: PTRs are still quite inconsistent performers and are "damage over time" weapons to vehicles.
Instead of standing still and giving him the full damage in a splitsecond, you work several seconds on it (preparation time and shooting, if he stays in range) to put out the same amount of damage.
Furthermore you have to criple a whole squad in its' AI capabilites for it, which puts it on the other side of an extreme, while Volks on the other hand only lost 20% of its' firepower (even tho they could snipe with Schrecks).
Sovs are more based around AT criple grenades, a good AT gun and a good scaling early TD with TD range (SU76) to counter vehicles than actual PTRs play.


You see, every faction has to give some tools up or criple their performance while OKW had just an "allround for no real investment" frontline which still had plenty of tools to fill any gap.

They adressed 2 problems with this change.
OKWs' unnecessary allrounding frontline, and having a frontline infantery performer without an AI-increasing weapon upgrade.
8 Feb 2018, 05:25 AM
#71
avatar of dk828315

Posts: 88


Those factions are not based around an invisible/house fortifying AT gun, which (if played correctly) can take out every medium armour simply by having a double Püppchen move to the correct position.
How about the Puma which can consistently penetrate mediums as an early game vehicle, as "one who outrange them all" with TD range?

The raketen is funny, it lacks range to be a proper ATG while having the cloak to mimic the Ost ambush camouflage, which is good, even OP when you mass them, but mediocre when used individually.

This thing can barely catch up even with engine-damaged tanks at max range. They were kinda fine before with the veterancy range buff, now they're just weird. If used offensively, the raketen must put itself in harm's way, more than other ATGs, while the result is just so-so. If used defensively, it rocks, but only in numbers, and that's 540 MP or more.

The puma is what OKW needs, a fast response to Allies armor threats. But it doesn't penetrate medium tanks often at max range, and building it means you have no P4s and/or obers to deal with infantry for a while. So the Allies still have infantry superiority unless you build a luchs, which is nerfed into oblivion.
8 Feb 2018, 05:52 AM
#72
avatar of dk828315

Posts: 88



The three musketeers it is.

While we're at it, how about giving fresh obers G43s? Maybe only 2 will do, to help them scale better into late game. Double schreck upgrade can replace the kar98s, if they're still too strong vs infantry then it can replace the G43s instead. The same can also be applied to the LMG34.

Their name is "OBERsoldaten" but they don't feel "OBER" at all, at least when not upgraded with anything.
8 Feb 2018, 07:41 AM
#73
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1038 | Subs: 1



True, although bazookas and panzerschrecks alike at that time were RNG sniper rifles. Volks were a bit unique in that their 5 levels of vet also gave them great accuracy for their panzerschrecks, and their panzerschrecks made it really easy to get to vet 5.

Plus as USF you always had your snare (after vet 1). OKW at the time didn't have a snare. People also forget that.



I've been preachin' this since '15.

Now that Obers are closer to Stormtroopers and Panzergrens a potentially earlier arrival might actually be seen as feasible.


Yeah i actually forgot they didn't have a snare, which back then made m10 and Cromwell crush disastrous for okw

I have to admit tank crushing a volk blob was amazing though
8 Feb 2018, 14:51 PM
#74
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3091 | Subs: 2


While we're at it, how about giving fresh obers G43s? Maybe only 2 will do, to help them scale better into late game. Double schreck upgrade can replace the kar98s, if they're still too strong vs infantry then it can replace the G43s instead. The same can also be applied to the LMG34.

Their name is "OBERsoldaten" but they don't feel "OBER" at all, at least when not upgraded with anything.


Squad leader gets an STG44 like the Volksgrenadier one in CoH, 2 guys get G43s, 1 guy gets a KAR98.

Kar98 guy get replaced by MG34.

G43 guys get replaced by Panzershrecks.

Cannot upgrade to MG34 if not already upgraded to Panzershrecks as G43s and MG34 plus the 1 STG44 would be too OP of a combination.

But then again that would be too OP of a unit to come out of the medical HQ truck so yeah...

Unless of course they are 2 separate units.

Panzerjagers which use the Ober models are a new dedicated AT squad similar to the Panzergrenadiers armed with G43s instead of STG44s and have the double shreck upgrade.

And the Obers themselves that stay in the Schwererpanzer HQ truck but use our idea here as to be balanced and not mid game terminators.

However, what would be the point of the Sturmpioneer combat package Shreck then? I'd rather they had flamethrowers by default or something.

Not to mention the Obers would be all around terminators in the late game as infantry units.

Unless we remove the Shreck from the Sturms and not give the Obers the double shreck upgrade.

I agree that the Obers deserve to have G43s tho, would be cool for infantry units to have like the same model squad leaders but armed with a better weapon like in CoH to signify them as the squad leaders.
8 Feb 2018, 15:46 PM
#75
avatar of CptOps

Posts: 90



Idk what game you are playing, but volks cost 250 mp and reinforce for 25 mp a soldier from what i know.

Meanwhile, Rifles cost 280 mp to buy and 28 to reinforce 1 man.

Penals are 300 mp and 25 mp or so to reinforce? idk the latter for sure.



If Penals and Riflemen are less expensive while being reasonably superior to volksgrenadiers in most aspects, OKW would be dead earlygame.

(Why do volk reinforce slower when they have vet? since when is this a thing?)

On a sidenote: you lost a panther to PTRS(or someone else)? That's impressive in a bad way. Not that i wish to imply that it is impossible, but oh well.

I am sure that volk reinforce slower once veted up,i can feel it but then again could be wrong.Hmm why did i think Allies infantry is cheaper(before checking the stats)?maybe had something to do with how often blobed up they are.
As for the PTRS killing Panther thing,i just saw it recently,quite shocking to be honest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twWXHxORMF8
So this is my conclusion with this thread
1)Give ober doubled shreck.Do it like US Captain?or panzergrenadier.Or they could create a commander that Specialize on countering enemy armor?
2)Early rakenwefer is enough i think,mid to late game you will had your panzer command set up so getting ober for those tank seem natural
3)If don't want to rely on infantry cause they could got wipe by blob then just use Jadtiger for the Heavys.
8 Feb 2018, 20:44 PM
#76
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Feb 2018, 15:46 PMCptOps

I am sure that volk reinforce slower once veted up,i can feel it but then again could be wrong.Hmm why did i think Allies infantry is cheaper(before checking the stats)?maybe had something to do with how often blobed up they are.
As for the PTRS killing Panther thing,i just saw it recently,quite shocking to be honest https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twWXHxORMF8
So this is my conclusion with this thread
1)Give ober doubled shreck.Do it like US Captain?or panzergrenadier.Or they could create a commander that Specialize on countering enemy armor?
2)Early rakenwefer is enough i think,mid to late game you will had your panzer command set up so getting ober for those tank seem natural
3)If don't want to rely on infantry cause they could got wipe by blob then just use Jadtiger for the Heavys.


Regarding the replay, the penals frequently used their AT satchels to deal with the panthers dealing huge amounts of damage. I can conclude that most of the damage was thus dealt by the satchels, not the PTRS which finished the job. Therefore, the satchels destroyed the panther, not the PTRS.

As for you other points:

1; Give ober double shreck? Sounds like an awful idea to me. This would completely go against the units intended role: Anti- infantry firepower. Not to mention i wouldn't like the idea of having 2 expensive Ober squads just to have proper AI and AT, when compared to the allies. The Sturmpioneers, despite being overburdened, would be way more fitting for the AT role, which is slightly reinforced by several voicelines that they have when they have a AT weapon: ''Aim for the armor's weak points!'' among others.

2; Early raketenwerfer certainly is not enough for the lategame. putting the raketen's current performance aside, there are plenty of late- game tanks that can serve the AT role. This however requires planning ahead of time in order to decide what tank is best suited for the current timeframe and map control. Having the ability to just completely ignore that and get Obers for your AT roles with 2 panzershrecks would give a decent chance of it becoming the new, boring meta.

3; Everyone uses Jagdtigers for heavy's. dunno what you mean with this, really.
8 Feb 2018, 21:24 PM
#77
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

You recall that Obers were rather nerfed? They aren't the same unit they used to be. If schrecks on obers is unfeasible because of their cost, neither are pgren schrecks.

Obers are closer to stormtroopers anymore. And it's not like they or pgrens come close to sufficient for AT.
9 Feb 2018, 03:47 AM
#78
avatar of dk828315

Posts: 88



1; Give ober double shreck? Sounds like an awful idea to me. This would completely go against the units intended role: Anti- infantry firepower. Not to mention i wouldn't like the idea of having 2 expensive Ober squads just to have proper AI and AT, when compared to the allies. The Sturmpioneers, despite being overburdened, would be way more fitting for the AT role, which is slightly reinforced by several voicelines that they have when they have a AT weapon: ''Aim for the armor's weak points!'' among others.

2; Early raketenwerfer certainly is not enough for the lategame. putting the raketen's current performance aside, there are plenty of late- game tanks that can serve the AT role. This however requires planning ahead of time in order to decide what tank is best suited for the current timeframe and map control. Having the ability to just completely ignore that and get Obers for your AT roles with 2 panzershrecks would give a decent chance of it becoming the new, boring meta.

3; Everyone uses Jagdtigers for heavy's. dunno what you mean with this, really.

1. If not obers, then create a new panzerjaeger infantry unit with the same model, like the panzer busche squad from COH1, except with 2 schrecks instead of only 1 (schrecks were good back then), just make them a bit cheaper than obers.

2.Right now the late game hard counters to Allies tanks that OKW have are jagdpanzers and panthers. Jagdpanzers are just decent, they were good before, now just decent because they are like 10 times slower than the stugs that they try so hard to imitate, not to mention they often get rushed by medium tank blobs because you know, OKW can't lay down a lot of defensive AT fire compared to Ost with their panzergrenadiers. Let's also bring up the price of the jagdpanzer, it is certainly overpriced for what it does, I'd rather have a cheap, easily replaced stug with its blistering RoF all day. OKW panther is nerfed so I don't use it anymore, even with the reduction in fuel cost. Why? Because the massive buff to the jackson, fielding offensive TDs to chase it down is pointless as it now has a fat HP pool, like it recently ate a lot of fries and burgers but somehow kept the punch it always has. It's not rare to see jacksons rolling with meds late game.

3. What's the point of using the Jagdtiger after the changes to tanks anyway? It doesn't 2-shot those mediums anymore, in fact, it is the one that gets steamrolled by hordes of meds, just like the jagdpanzer I mentioned above.

I mainly speak the truth that is present in team games nowadays, in smaller game modes those issues are less annoying.
9 Feb 2018, 08:16 AM
#79
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241



Regarding the replay, the penals frequently used their AT satchels to deal with the panthers dealing huge amounts of damage. I can conclude that most of the damage was thus dealt by the satchels, not the PTRS which finished the job. Therefore, the satchels destroyed the panther, not the PTRS.



you are totally wrong....yes---satchel do much dmg...to much when you compare other fausts versions.

3 stachels kill one panther...on a infntery unit which is very strong vs infantery too

if you would look the whole replay...you would see many situration where 2 or 3 guards do so much dmg with the ptrs....it not funny...

and than compare it with the dmg from 2 or 3 st pios with their fasut---the do nearly no dmg vs armor.

this is hillorous
9 Feb 2018, 10:22 AM
#80
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5272

Jp4 is great...idk what you are talking about. Ita one of the only units that will bounce allied TD shots AND can return fire... I know the main strat ATM is mass TDs and attack move for the hills but if you support your JP4 with a rak or 2 for armour rushs its mint, perfect for su76s too
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