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Rifleman moving cooldown penalty and RE cost

24 Jul 2017, 17:31 PM
#1
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

I have two points about USF that I don't think It make sense.
Rear Echelons should be a Cheap unit to crew support weapons and act like a background army, but they cost 25 to reinforce (Like Penals and Volks)
And the second is why Riflemen Moving Cooldown penalty is so high?
Penals have 0.75 now (Before Fall patch it was 0.5) and g43 still have 0.5, which is ok, but why Riflemen have 1.25? It is almost the same as bolt action rifles like kar98 and mosin(1.5)
24 Jul 2017, 17:56 PM
#2
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 955

Well, the RE reinforce cost is ridiculous indeed, shouldnt be more than twenty... Volks and Penals reinforce is on the other hand too cheap...
Its due to the retarded "unit cost cut by two and then cut by the number of unit members" reinforce design

24 Jul 2017, 18:17 PM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

There are 2 stat affecting moving, cool-down and accuracy looking at only at one them does not paint the full picture.

For instance the DPS drop for both M1 and SVT is around 55% at close range.
24 Jul 2017, 19:41 PM
#4
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3596 | Subs: 1

RE reinforcement cost is due to them picking LMG and becoming super cheap 5men squad fighting unit like hell.
We all agree this is stupid but the root cause is the weapon rack system. Hope Relic will forget about this feature when they design Coh3.
24 Jul 2017, 19:45 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jul 2017, 19:41 PMEsxile
RE reinforcement cost is due to them picking LMG and becoming super cheap 5men squad fighting unit like hell.
We all agree this is stupid but the root cause is the weapon rack system. Hope Relic will forget about this feature when they design Coh3.


There is a very easy way to avoid the issues from the rack system. That is to design drop-able weapon with mainline infantry in mind and add penalties for low quality troops and bonuses for elite troops.
(the system is half implement at the moment with some elite infantry receiving bonuses)
24 Jul 2017, 20:31 PM
#6
avatar of Taksin02

Posts: 148

reinforce reduce at vet 3 will be ok (cuz 5 men)
24 Jul 2017, 21:01 PM
#7
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3138 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jul 2017, 19:45 PMVipper


There is a very easy way to avoid the issues from the rack system. That is to design drop-able weapon with mainline infantry in mind and add penalties for low quality troops and bonuses for elite troops.
(the system is half implement at the moment with some elite infantry receiving bonuses)


This.

The easiest example is Commandos and Obers being able to fire Brens and MG34s on the move respectively.

But in all honesty I prefer the UKF weapon racks at the FA, having to retreat all the way back to base to equip your infantry is gay, that's why I only play with E8s when I go USF.
24 Jul 2017, 21:32 PM
#8
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jul 2017, 19:41 PMEsxile
RE reinforcement cost is due to them picking LMG and becoming super cheap 5men squad fighting unit like hell.
We all agree this is stupid but the root cause is the weapon rack system. Hope Relic will forget about this feature when they design Coh3.


Conscripts can do the same, and still be better at this, and they are WAY cheaper than RE. The point is, RE shouldn't be the same price as Standard infantry like Volks and perform worse, very worse.
24 Jul 2017, 21:47 PM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jul 2017, 21:32 PMBizrock


Conscripts can do the same, and still be better at this, and they are WAY cheaper than RE. The point is, RE shouldn't be the same price as Standard infantry like Volks and perform worse, very worse.

Compare RE with Pios. You will find that they are better fighting unit...
24 Jul 2017, 22:20 PM
#10
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jul 2017, 21:47 PMVipper

Compare RE with Pios. You will find that they are better fighting unit...


I'am pretty sure Pios can rush RE and still win and by the way, Pios can be very good planting mines while RE can build Tank traps (Kappa). Pios are very useful with Flamethrower upgrade (I said "USEFUL") while RE can only obtain it with Commander.
But I'm not here comparing both, the purpose of RE that's broken. In the text, it said it's a "Cheap" infantry for recrewing support weapons and etc while they are the same price as Volks, that's what doesn't make any sense.
24 Jul 2017, 23:02 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jul 2017, 22:20 PMBizrock

I'am pretty sure Pios can rush RE and still win and by the way, Pios can be very good planting mines while RE can build Tank traps (Kappa). Pios are very useful with Flamethrower upgrade (I said "USEFUL") while RE can only obtain it with Commander.
But I'm not here comparing both, the purpose of RE that's broken. In the text, it said it's a "Cheap" infantry for recrewing support weapons and etc while they are the same price as Volks, that's what doesn't make any sense.

Comparing a engineer type unit with mainline infantry units make little sense to begin with.

Cheap RE have been tested it resulted in RE blobs with weapon punching above their price especially since the get a big accuracy bonus in vet 1.

December Balance
"Rear Echelons
We have scaled up Rear echelons up slightly to reduce spam.

Rear echelons cost up from 160 to 200

Rear echelon rifle damage up from 8 to 10"

As long as rack weapon with full DPS (even being better in their hand by vet 1), are available to RE this issue will exist.
25 Jul 2017, 07:32 AM
#12
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Yea i never understood why there wasnt just a "weapon slot modifier" stat on each unit. Seems like it would have solved alot of problems from the start...
31 Jul 2017, 13:50 PM
#13
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jul 2017, 18:17 PMVipper
There are 2 stat affecting moving accuracy cool-down and accuracy looking at only at one them does not paint the full picture.

For instance the DPS drop for both M1 and SVT is around 55% at close range.


I didn't understand, Rifleman have 0,6 moving accuracy while Penals and the bolt action Grenadiers and volks (KAR98) have 0,5 moving accuracy penalty. So actually is way worse than you said.
31 Jul 2017, 19:25 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2017, 13:50 PMBizrock


I didn't understand, Rifleman have 0,6 moving accuracy while Penals and the bolt action Grenadiers and volks (KAR98) have 0,5 moving accuracy penalty. So actually is way worse than you said.

there more factors that change for units that move, accuracy is only one of them.

Looking only at accuracy will not allow to know the DPS of unit on the move. Rate of fire is also affected by movement (that is shock PPsh are quite good on the move).
31 Jul 2017, 20:57 PM
#15
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2017, 19:25 PMVipper

there more factors that change for units that move, accuracy is only one of them.

Looking only at accuracy will not allow to know the DPS of unit on the move. Rate of fire is also affected by movement (that is shock PPsh are quite good on the move).


Yea, that's why my complaint was about two things, RE costs and the rifleman rate of fire cooldown penalty on move. Like I said, Rifleman semi automatic rifles for no reason have the moving cooldown penalty as high as bolt action rifles, rifleman M1 garand have 1,25 and Volks/Grens kar98 have 1,5, while all others semi automatic rifles(Penals SVTs and g43s) have 0,5.
In this fall patch, penals are being nerfed to 0,75, which still way better than rifleman 1,25 moving cooldown penalty.
31 Jul 2017, 21:26 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2017, 20:57 PMBizrock


Yea, that's why my complaint was about two things, RE costs and the rifleman rate of fire cooldown penalty on move. Like I said, Rifleman semi automatic rifles for no reason have the moving cooldown penalty as high as bolt action rifles, rifleman M1 garand have 1,25 and Volks/Grens kar98 have 1,5, while all others semi automatic rifles(Penals SVTs and g43s) have 0,5.
In this fall patch, penals are being nerfed to 0,75, which still way better than rifleman 1,25 moving cooldown penalty.

The Cool-down multipliers do not affect DPS linearly as accuracy does.

If you compared the DPS ratio of the (Garand moving)/Garand of the riflemen at close range you will see that is similar to (SVT moving)/SVT ratio (currently in live).
31 Jul 2017, 21:31 PM
#17
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2017, 21:26 PMVipper

The Cool-down multipliers do not affect DPS linearly as accuracy does.

If you compared the DPS ratio of the (Garand moving)/Garand of the riflemen at close range you will see that is similar to (SVT moving)/SVT ratio (currently in live).


The Problem is that Rifleman suffers too much both on accuracy and rate of fire on moving, more than bolt action rifles considering that you said that accuracy matters more. This doesn't make sense to me.
31 Jul 2017, 21:42 PM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2017, 21:31 PMBizrock


The Problem is that Rifleman suffers too much both on accuracy and rate of fire on moving, more than bolt action rifles considering that you said that accuracy matters more. This doesn't make sense to me.

Bolt action rifles like the k98 depend on accuracy and high damage, carbine weapons like the riflemen M1 depend on high rate of fire.

The x0.5 accuracy modifier for K98 cuts its DPS to half while the M1 only suffers x0.6 accuracy penalty. In addition to that the K98 suffer x1.5 CD while the M1 only 1.25. The K98 loose allot more DPS than M1 while on the move.

Penals and their SVT are problematic so do even go there.
1 Aug 2017, 10:29 AM
#19
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2017, 21:42 PMVipper

Bolt action rifles like the k98 depend on accuracy and high damage, carbine weapons like the riflemen M1 depend on high rate of fire.

The x0.5 accuracy modifier for K98 cuts its DPS to half while the M1 only suffers x0.6 accuracy penalty. In addition to that the K98 suffer x1.5 CD while the M1 only 1.25. The K98 loose allot more DPS than M1 while on the move.

Penals and their SVT are problematic so do even go there.


So help me to understand. The number of accuracy penalty is a multiplier which the lowest more accuracy will be lost on moving. Bolt actions Lee Enfield's and k98 have lower numbers compared with assault guns and semi automatic rifles, which make sense.

But I didn't understand what the cool down multiplier means, for what I got from you is that 1,5 means that the cool down will increase 50%, but SVTs, g43s and others submachine guns have values under 1. G43 have 0,5 so that means that cool down will be cutted in a half while moving? Or 0.5 means x1.5 and 1.5 means x2.5?
1 Aug 2017, 12:49 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



So help me to understand. The number of accuracy penalty is a multiplier which the lowest more accuracy will be lost on moving. Bolt actions Lee Enfield's and k98 have lower numbers compared with assault guns and semi automatic rifles, which make sense.

But I didn't understand what the cool down multiplier means, for what I got from you is that 1,5 means that the cool down will increase 50%, but SVTs, g43s and others submachine guns have values under 1. G43 have 0,5 so that means that cool down will be cutted in a half while moving? Or 0.5 means x1.5 and 1.5 means x2.5?


In cooldown value lower than 1 mean time between shot will lesser and the weapon will actually fire faster while values over 1 that the weapon will actually fire slower.

So yea penals actually fire faster on the move.


This one formula for calculating DPS maybe it will help you understand it better.

"Total damage:
accuracy(incremental, range, target_size, moving, cover)*damage(cover)*penetration(range, armor)*burst bullets(range, moving)*(1+reload frequency)
Burst bullets:
1 if single fire, otherwise Burst duration(range, moving)*rate of fire(range)

Time required:
(wind up+fire aim(range)+burst duration(range, moving)+wind down+cooldown(range, moving))*(1+reload frequency)
- cooldown(range, moving) - fire aim(range) + ready aim(range) + reload duration(range)

DPS: total damage/time required" (Quote from Cruzz,)
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