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russian armor

Why ZiS get a slow debuff?

13 Feb 2017, 23:09 PM
#1
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

Who had the amazing idea to give worst AT a slow movement penalty?

And probably affects turnrate too...

seriously relic...
13 Feb 2017, 23:30 PM
#2
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Feb 2017, 23:09 PMzerocoh
Who had the amazing idea to give worst AT a slow movement penalty?

And probably affects turnrate too...

seriously relic...


Are you referring to the commander ability that makes it cloak? This ability has remained unchanged from launch as far as I know. The debuffs should come off once the gun fires to help users, but this was never implemented.
13 Feb 2017, 23:37 PM
#3
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

No I'm talking about the goddamn slow when you go over ANY obstacle that only slow the zis down, all other ats don't have that shit.

It's so bad that I gave up on using it again.
13 Feb 2017, 23:57 PM
#4
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

The effect that you are talking about was identified on m-42 only right now and is fixed there in WBP. If you claim that zis-3 has same bug, send a replay to WBP crew.
14 Feb 2017, 00:07 AM
#5
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

just go into cheat mode and use a katuysa to make a lot of craters then move the zis over it, you will see that it get massive slow as soon it enter the yellow cover and move normally when it leaves. It's like it is moving on deep snow or something.

Like I said, I don't know if the turn rate also get slowed.
14 Feb 2017, 00:12 AM
#6
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

also, if this is a bug, it's been around for years. I can't believe nobody get annoyed by it.
14 Feb 2017, 07:57 AM
#7
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3139 | Subs: 2

Post a replay if you want the community modders to look into it.
14 Feb 2017, 08:10 AM
#8
avatar of The amazing Chandler

Posts: 1355

I always had the same feeling, that the ZIS was moving slower but a said to my self that this is just in my head.
If this is true then please fix it ASAP.
14 Feb 2017, 09:18 AM
#9
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

Yeah we know of this inconsistency. Soviet and USF guns get a -40% speed debuff in crater cover. Probably just so that it's easier to wipe them with artillery, again and again. (Other guns don't get any speed debuffs of any kind).

Unfortunately, addressing this inconsistency was deemed out of scope.
V-T
14 Feb 2017, 11:57 AM
#10
avatar of V-T

Posts: 80

I kinda understand, that in soft, rough ground chewed by artillery a one ton gun can be a bit hard to move around, even with a crew. So that makes sense. If it affected 75mm PaK too it should be ok.

Then the 45mm russian at gun, and raketenwerfer shoud not be affected by soft mud, as they're pretty lightweight.
14 Feb 2017, 12:00 PM
#11
avatar of Frost

Posts: 1024 | Subs: 1

Unfortunately, addressing this inconsistency was deemed out of scope.


xD
14 Feb 2017, 12:01 PM
#12
avatar of cochosgo

Posts: 301

14 Feb 2017, 12:06 PM
#13
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Feb 2017, 11:57 AMV-T
I kinda understand, that in soft, rough ground chewed by artillery a one ton gun can be a bit hard to move around, even with a crew. So that makes sense. If it affected 75mm PaK too it should be ok.

Then the 45mm russian at gun, and raketenwerfer shoud not be affected by soft mud, as they're pretty lightweight.


That could be a nice idea to let raketenwerfer/m42 have a niche advantage over other AT guns. However, I wouldn't make the speed debuff more than 10-20%. There is -no- way you can dodge an incoming stuka barrage under these conditions (and those barrages will spawn even more craters).

To get a feel of how massive a 10-20% debuff to speed is, try out the following vehicles:
- M20 -> 20% speed debuff on craters
- Greyhound -> 20% speed debuff on craters
- Stuart -> 10% debuff on craters

PS: The Soviet AT ambush ability imparts a -75% movement speed penalty, which is why it is so useless.
14 Feb 2017, 12:08 PM
#14
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Unfortunately, addressing this inconsistency was deemed out of scope.


14 Feb 2017, 12:11 PM
#15
avatar of Mirdarion

Posts: 283


The Soviet AT ambush ability imparts a -75% movement speed penalty, which is why it is so useless.


No, the Ambush ability is fucking useless, because it only appears in absolute rubbish commanders. The Raketenwerfer's cloak also comes with a massive movement penalty, yet nobody claims that this makes the ability useless (and that's on an AT gun that's even worse than the ZiS-3).
14 Feb 2017, 12:25 PM
#16
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



No, the Ambush ability is fucking useless, because it only appears in absolute rubbish commanders. The Raketenwerfer's cloak also comes with a massive movement penalty, yet nobody claims that this makes the ability useless (and that's on an AT gun that's even worse than the ZiS-3).


The movement penalty you are referring to is:
- 50% at Vet0
- 0% at Vet1 and thereafter

The same ability also infers some accuracy/penetration bonuses starting from Vet3. With Soviet AT Ambush you get nothing.
14 Feb 2017, 12:34 PM
#17
avatar of Mirdarion

Posts: 283



The movement penalty you are referring to is:
- 50% at Vet0
- 0% at Vet1 and thereafter

The same ability also infers some accuracy/penetration bonuses starting from Vet3. With Soviet AT Ambush you get nothing.


Yeah, good luck keeping that Raketenwerfer alive at that point, when a single shot from the exact units it is meant to fight are extremely likely to instantly kill it - the ZiS doesn't suffer from that problem. And considering that the ZiS-3 is significantly superior to the Raketenwerfer (even with the cloak buffs the Raketenwerfer has), Ambush cloak doesn't seem that bad a deal anymore.

The problem, as I wrote above, is that Ambush cloak comes on shitty commanders. It's on Mechanised Support Tactics and Combined Arms Army. Perhaps one of the other abilities has any actual usefulness to it, the rest is complete and utter wank, not worth the time Relic needed to create them. That's why you don't see it being used, not because the cloak itself is shit. Back when the ISU-152 was worthwhile, you'd regularly see people use Mechanised Support Tactics, because it had the glorious ISU in combination with Mark Target and a bombing run. That also meant you'd see loads of cloaked AT guns, because that became a viable strategy. Weirdly enough, all that stopped when the ISU was nerfed into oblivion... Hm, I wonder why that might be?
14 Feb 2017, 13:19 PM
#18
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930



Yeah, good luck keeping that Raketenwerfer alive at that point


Raketen is the most survivable AT, it's pretty easy to vet them to at least vet1(3 shots) and that is all you need.
14 Feb 2017, 13:32 PM
#19
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Yeah, good luck keeping that Raketenwerfer alive at that point, when a single shot from the exact units it is meant to fight are extremely likely to instantly kill it - the ZiS doesn't suffer from that problem. And considering that the ZiS-3 is significantly superior to the Raketenwerfer (even with the cloak buffs the Raketenwerfer has), Ambush cloak doesn't seem that bad a deal anymore.

The problem, as I wrote above, is that Ambush cloak comes on shitty commanders. It's on Mechanised Support Tactics and Combined Arms Army. Perhaps one of the other abilities has any actual usefulness to it, the rest is complete and utter wank, not worth the time Relic needed to create them. That's why you don't see it being used, not because the cloak itself is shit. Back when the ISU-152 was worthwhile, you'd regularly see people use Mechanised Support Tactics, because it had the glorious ISU in combination with Mark Target and a bombing run. That also meant you'd see loads of cloaked AT guns, because that became a viable strategy. Weirdly enough, all that stopped when the ISU was nerfed into oblivion... Hm, I wonder why that might be?


Shock Rifle (IS2) commander ?
14 Feb 2017, 14:18 PM
#20
avatar of strafniki

Posts: 558 | Subs: 1

russian AT is horrible to use, historical accurate DatSheffy
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