Login

russian armor

Ostheer weaknesses

4 Sep 2016, 23:19 PM
#1
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 140

Hi guys. Let me tell you what I feel about COH2 right now.

I really like this game. It is one of my fav game of all times. Even when I don´t play too much (because my PC sucks), I enjoy it a lot watching replays on youtube and twitch.

I know all that stuff of the asymmetrical balance. It´s true. Nobody wants 5 equal factions. But at least RELIC should hear the community when we express ourselves about balance issues.

I think that all of the PROs that Ostheer has are being overshadowed with all of this 12 weaknesses. Hence, the faction is the worst in the game.

OSTHEER weakness:
  • Grens and Pgrens survivality: should be 5 men. Or decrease the receive accuracy on them. Or decrease their cost.
  • Infantry suffers too much damage from the explosions. Allies has too much tanks that insta kill 2 or 3 models of infantry from every shot: (T70, T34/76, T34/85, SU76 barrage ability, KV8, IS2, ISU152, Sherman, Sherman E8, Pershing, Stuart, Scott, Bulldozer, Cromwell, Comet, Croc, Churchill).
  • Repair abilities from PIOS should be faster. OST relay on tanks, so they need to be repaired quickly!! Maybe Pgrens should gain the ability to repair tanks at vet1. Just maybe.!
  • Grens and Pgrens reinforcement cost too much.
  • Panther just misses a lot, it does not make too much damage in order to fight against the horde of allied tanks, and is dedicated only to AT.
  • Ostwind suffers from the elevation penalty, misses too much, and it makes little to nothing of damage.
  • Ostheer does not have an early medium tank to fight properly the T70, Stuart and AEC. They need something like the Panzer 3 or the Puma (as a stock unit).
  • Ostheer is the only faction that does not have a LONG RANGE AND HIGH PENETRATION TANK. They only have the Stug3, but it dont pen the big tanks and has low health. They need something similar to the SU85, FireFly, Jackson or the JP4. Maybe the JagdPanther as a stock Unit in T4.
  • Ostheer only have 4 units that can fight enemy infantry and can kill some models from time to time: P4, Brummbar, PanzerWerfer and Pgrens. Maybe Grens too, but they end loosing and retreat.
  • The TIGER front armor is very weak. The Allied tanks and AT tanks penetrate it almost with every shot.
  • Pak43 die too fast. It should be like the Brit emplacements. It is nearlly useless now.
  • The 3 Battle Phases for teching up just has no sense at all. It just makes the faction to tech very slow. When you upgrade to BP2 and BP3, it just give you nothing in return but the chance to build the buildings.



Now, what I feel is that Ostheer is really weak in every aspect of the game. From every game that I watch, 8 out of 10 are OST lost (if not more!!). Without exaggerating. That´s not a good balance from my point of view.
4 Sep 2016, 23:49 PM
#2
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

I'm not saying ostheer couldn't use a few buffs here and there, but the current imbalance is pretty minor compared to previous imbalances. They even have above average winrates on all modes this week, better then usf.
5 Sep 2016, 00:00 AM
#3
avatar of turbotortoise

Posts: 1173 | Subs: 3

Cool down my man.

1. Don't trust winrates, I refer you to our headline section and Siphon X.

Leo, I have the feeling you're trying to play this game like it was a year ago, locking down in the early tiers and hanging on to dear life for a stronger late game. If you make a conceited effort in the mid game, with "lesser" units like the StuG III, Cmnd PiV and 222, as well as trying things out like the LeFH 18, you're going to have a better time. Also, Grenadier heavy builds are not very successful the Wehrmacht are not the USF, you need to play them differently.

But to address your points directly:

1. They're not Riflemen, but supported with team weapons, and used in cover/more defensively, you shouldn't have too many issues.
2. Plant mines and see 1? That's a pretty broad accusation
3. Try implementing double pios into your build. There is usually enough manpower between T1 and constructing the Leichte Kompany.
4. Perhaps if you're losing a lot of squad members. Reinforcement cost is relatively fixed. Try implementing more support weapons, having too many squads will exacerbate the bleed.
5. It's a great tank 1 on 1 and even 2 on 1. When you mention a "horde vs. panther" situation, something in the mid game is breaking here, try adding a StuG or PaK40,43 if you're feeling really creative.
6. Yeah the Bostwind is cack. Stick to StuG's out of T3.
7. StuG III (seeing a trend?)
8. Elefant, but really, stick to StuG's
9. Sniper, Mortar, MG42, LeFH 18, 222, FlameHT, Stooge, PiV? -- Grenadier less, support more.
10. Yeah, probably, but it's not the ace in the hole anymore.
11. Nothing should be like an emplacement,, may I suggest they turn into the Pak43, and both their costs be adjusted.
12. That's the point of tech.

More midgame, less inf, be more compact and utilize more supports. Enjoy life.
5 Sep 2016, 00:21 AM
#4
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 6251 | Subs: 1

5 Sep 2016, 08:00 AM
#5
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

What turbotortoise said basically.

Grenadier-spam is nearly at the bottom of the food-chain when it comes to raw combat performance; they are only effective vs conscript-heavy builds; USF and UKF simply laugh at them. Consider replacing them with 1-2 unupgraded PGrens, if you want to go toe-to-toe vs infantry; then you show them who laughs better.

If the enemy goes crazy on rocket artillery, throw in a command P4. The aura of the command P4 is a better version of the 5-man upgrade. The aura also almost completely nullifies the effects of mortars, rocket artillery, grenades and other explodey things.

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Sep 2016, 23:19 PMLeo251

The 3 Battle Phases for teching up just has no sense at all. It just makes the faction to tech very slow. When you upgrade to BP2 and BP3, it just give you nothing in return but the chance to build the buildings.


Having to research the battlephase upgrades before being allowed to build your actual tiers (instead of bundling the costs together), is a bit annoying. However, the trade-off here is that OSTheer has non-linear tech and can skip tiers entirely, as they see fit. The only real mandatory tier is T2; everything else is mix-and-match.
5 Sep 2016, 08:40 AM
#6
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13678 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Sep 2016, 23:19 PMLeo251

  • Grens and Pgrens survivality: should be 5 men. Or decrease the receive accuracy on them. Or decrease their cost.
  • Infantry suffers too much damage from the explosions. Allies has too much tanks that insta kill 2 or 3 models of infantry from every shot: (T70, T34/76, T34/85, SU76 barrage ability, KV8, IS2, ISU152, Sherman, Sherman E8, Pershing, Stuart, Scott, Bulldozer, Cromwell, Comet, Croc, Churchill).
  • Repair abilities from PIOS should be faster. OST relay on tanks, so they need to be repaired quickly!! Maybe Pgrens should gain the ability to repair tanks at vet1. Just maybe.!
  • Grens and Pgrens reinforcement cost too much.
  • Panther just misses a lot, it does not make too much damage in order to fight against the horde of allied tanks, and is dedicated only to AT.
  • Ostwind suffers from the elevation penalty, misses too much, and it makes little to nothing of damage.
  • Ostheer does not have an early medium tank to fight properly the T70, Stuart and AEC. They need something like the Panzer 3 or the Puma (as a stock unit).
  • Ostheer is the only faction that does not have a LONG RANGE AND HIGH PENETRATION TANK. They only have the Stug3, but it dont pen the big tanks and has low health. They need something similar to the SU85, FireFly, Jackson or the JP4. Maybe the JagdPanther as a stock Unit in T4.
  • Ostheer only have 4 units that can fight enemy infantry and can kill some models from time to time: P4, Brummbar, PanzerWerfer and Pgrens. Maybe Grens too, but they end loosing and retreat.
  • The TIGER front armor is very weak. The Allied tanks and AT tanks penetrate it almost with every shot.
  • Pak43 die too fast. It should be like the Brit emplacements. It is nearlly useless now.
  • The 3 Battle Phases for teching up just has no sense at all. It just makes the faction to tech very slow. When you upgrade to BP2 and BP3, it just give you nothing in return but the chance to build the buildings.



1+2 Squad spread should be improved and mirrored to brit inf, that is all what is needed here.
3 wrong, WFA and UKF got too potent repairs.
4 wrong, they reinforce exactly how they should, PGs in face have 10% reinforce discount, most of axis infantry got this discount(mainly OKW).
5 don't shoot on the move at max range-micro issue.
6 Same as panther, don't shoot it on the move and it does fine.
7 its called 222, it was buffed over and over and over for a reason.
8 Because its not needed. You have super cheap and effective StuGs you can effortelessly spam and you have panthers to slug it with heavies. No allied stock tank can stand up to panthers, therefore the need for 60 range TDs.
9 LOL
10 Tank destroyers destroy tanks, more news at 11. There is not a single generalist allied tank that can stand up to tiger frontally except for IS-2.
11 give it 75 fuel cost and 20 pop cap and it can be like 17 pounder.
12 you're not supposed to rush T4, its late game tier, therefore it got late game costs-its not a thing you do when you see T70 around-likely skill issue here if your games don't last long enough to slug there(at average skill level).
5 Sep 2016, 11:18 AM
#7
avatar of austerlitz

Posts: 1705

Easiest fix, don't play ostheer until it improves.And dont bother to bring up axis issues on this forum.
5 Sep 2016, 13:33 PM
#8
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1807

Easiest fix, don't play ostheer until it improves.And dont bother to bring up axis issues on this forum.



Seriously? This is your way to "fix" problems?

Kati-doof and you are the biggest trolls in this forum.

IS-2 bounce much from AT guns, Panther, stug, panzergrens and many other AT tools from axis.

but...tiger bounce only small AT gun. Almost all anti-tank tools from allies pentrate a tigers front nearly 90% .

sometimes i ask myself: "do we play the same game?" "Play they axis to? Or only their love alli factions?"
5 Sep 2016, 13:39 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13678 | Subs: 7


sometimes i ask myself: "do we play the same game?" "Play they axis to? Or only their love alli factions?"

From your posts?
You definitely play some hardcore mod, where allied units are about 10 times better then they are and you are locked to build only grens and pios yourself.

Also, if YOU have played axis HALF as good as we do play axis(comparing win %), you'd had no problems at all in the game.

I know that accepting the fact that you may not be half as good as you think you are is hard, but as others pointed out in 2v2 thread, you should be spamming strat forums, not gameplay or balance ones.
5 Sep 2016, 13:46 PM
#10
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1807

Oh yes..only iam the bad player!
Thats why the top 250 players are bad, too..cause of me...

http://www.directupload.net/file/d/4469/yhrgiief_png.htm
5 Sep 2016, 13:49 PM
#11
5 Sep 2016, 13:50 PM
#12
avatar of VelikiStrateg

Posts: 50

Katitif is not top 1000 player.. great noob..
5 Sep 2016, 13:52 PM
#13
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1807

Katitif is not top 1000 player.. great noob..


do u mean me?? where did i said this? when?

I proof with this statistic that the axis is much underpowered...really under averange...


not more
5 Sep 2016, 13:54 PM
#14
avatar of VelikiStrateg

Posts: 50



do u mean me?? where did i said this? when?

I proof with this statistic that the axis is much underpowered...really under averange...


not more


Not you.
5 Sep 2016, 14:11 PM
#15
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 140


1+2 Squad spread should be improved and mirrored to brit inf, that is all what is needed here.
3 wrong, WFA and UKF got too potent repairs.
4 wrong, they reinforce exactly how they should, PGs in face have 10% reinforce discount, most of axis infantry got this discount(mainly OKW).
5 don't shoot on the move at max range-micro issue.
6 Same as panther, don't shoot it on the move and it does fine.
7 its called 222, it was buffed over and over and over for a reason.
8 Because its not needed. You have super cheap and effective StuGs you can effortelessly spam and you have panthers to slug it with heavies. No allied stock tank can stand up to panthers, therefore the need for 60 range TDs.
9 LOL
10 Tank destroyers destroy tanks, more news at 11. There is not a single generalist allied tank that can stand up to tiger frontally except for IS-2.
11 give it 75 fuel cost and 20 pop cap and it can be like 17 pounder.
12 you're not supposed to rush T4, its late game tier, therefore it got late game costs-its not a thing you do when you see T70 around-likely skill issue here if your games don't last long enough to slug there(at average skill level).


1 and 2: agreed, but in green cover they stick together too much and become cannon fodder. Thats why a better idea would be a 5 men squad or a buff in RA. THIS GAME IS BASED IN CAPTURING POINTS AND FLAGS. IF OSTHEER INFANTRY DIE LIKE FLIES, THEN THEY ARE IN A OBVIOUS DISADVANTAGE. TANKS DONT CAP POINTS, REMEMBER?
3: then why Soviets and Ostheer repair slower? Are they using only one hand to repair? Are They dumb? there is not sense in this Relic logic.
4: agreed, but they also die faster, becasuse of point 1 and 2.
5 and 6: then why allies tanks can.
7: lol
8: Stugs bounce heavys 4 out of 5 shots.
9: lol
10: say hello to Comet, IS2, Pershing, E8, T34/85, etc. Even AT guns penetrate like crazy. Have you ever played as Ostheer?
11: no problem. I would pay that!
12: nobody want to rush T4. I am just saying that it is very slow to tech because you need to upgrade 2 times every tier.
5 Sep 2016, 14:14 PM
#16
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



do u mean me?? where did i said this? when?

I proof with this statistic that the axis is much underpowered...really under averange...


not more


Should I prove you that allies AT don't have nearly 90% chance to penetrate Tiger? :luvDerp:
___________
Yes, OST are in bad spot, but mostly of Rifles and Tommies with double LMGs. Allow only 1 LMG and suddenly Ostheer will shine.
5 Sep 2016, 14:25 PM
#17
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13678 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Sep 2016, 14:11 PMLeo251


1 and 2: agreed, but in green cover they stick together too much and become cannon fodder. Thats why a better idea would be a 5 men squad or a buff in RA. THIS GAME IS BASED IN CAPTURING POINTS AND FLAGS. IF OSTHEER INFANTRY DIE LIKE FLIES, THEN THEY ARE IN A OBVIOUS DISADVANTAGE. TANKS DONT CAP POINTS, REMEMBER?

Allied squads are also 4 men.
If point if being focus fired, no one can stay in there.
Conscripts die like flies as well.


3: then why Soviets and Ostheer repair slower? Are they using only one hand to repair? Are They dumb? there is not sense in this Relic logic.

Power creep with non vanila factions.

4: agreed, but they also die faster, becasuse of point 1 and 2.

Exclusively to explosives and its hardly exclusively ost problem.
My personal best is killing 16 models with ONE rifle nade, because they all clumped up.

5 and 6: then why allies tanks can.

Paper armor, inferior guns, lack of heavy armor, inferior non vehicular AT and no, allied TDs can NOT shoot accurately on the move on max range.

7: lol

You might want to see what a pair of 222s do to T70 or AEC while costing much less and not slowing down your tech.

8: Stugs bounce heavys 4 out of 5 shots.

StuGs bounce IS-2(most durable allied tank) about 50% of time.
Everything else is over 50% penetration going all the way up to 100%.
You've confused StuG with pre-buff SU-76.
Also, you're not supposed to use exclusively one stug vs heavies, pair will kill in no time any allied tank.

10: say hello to Comet, IS2, Pershing, E8, T34/85, etc. Even AT guns penetrate like crazy. Have you ever played as Ostheer?

Only IS-2 and Pershing penetrate heavies reliably from the front.
All the others you've mentioned will get wrecked.
And AT guns have one single purpose in game-to kill tanks. That is literally the only thing they do-heavy tanks are, again, still tanks, they SHOULD be penetrated often by AT guns.

12: nobody want to rush T4. I am just saying that it is very slow to tech because you need to upgrade 2 times every tier.

You're not paying the cost upfront, you don't need to save like all the other factions do, in return you're getting some of the best stock units in game once you get there.
5 Sep 2016, 14:34 PM
#18
avatar of vietnamabc

Posts: 1061

OH is pretty solid now, they are the only factions that can't spam to win so people might feel them lackluster. Check tournament, folks still win with OH.
5 Sep 2016, 14:34 PM
#19
avatar of wandererraven

Posts: 333

Tiger front armor about 300 better and panther and comet (290)
late TD tank pen 200-240 chance to pen tiger 60-70% in fine
but normally AT soldier is hard counter TD tank allies but now gren is cannot fight other core unit in lategame cannot help clear way for Pgren to deal a tank
gren vet acc 40% bonus is high value but rec acc is lower than other core unit it so sadly
5 Sep 2016, 14:34 PM
#20
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1807



Should I prove you that allies AT don't have nearly 90% chance to penetrate Tiger? :luvDerp:
___________
Yes, OST are in bad spot, but mostly of Rifles and Tommies with double LMGs. Allow only 1 LMG and suddenly Ostheer will shine.




i dont to need this...because i have done this just few minutes ago.
Result: almost (only usf m1 gun bounces 2-3) alli at gun pentrate tiger front to 90% (1 shot bounce)

look to my replays ...and proof me other.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
Thank you everyone for making WCS possible!
Event in Progress

Livestreams

unknown 71
New Zealand 10
unknown 190
United States 14
United States 1

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • The British Forces flag [c.B] Guard2707
  • Soviets flag [c.B] Brosras
  • Oberkommando West flag 女性主意
  • Ostheer flag 101 Airborne Divison
uploaded by koreanmaphack

Board Info

93 users are online: 2 members and 91 guests
koreanmaphack, Heavy Sapper
185 posts in the last 24h
1538 posts in the last week
7108 posts in the last month
Registered members: 65686
Welcome our newest member, cantiktoto
Most online: 918 users on 27 Oct 2019, 01:03 AM