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russian armor

USF mortar still not fixed

1 Sep 2016, 18:12 PM
#41
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



For years you say? Maybe it had something to do with.... Flamer upgrade for USF? :luvDerp:


even without the flamer upgrade the USF still have the distinct advantage in the early game.

they are just not as good at the late game as the soviet.

and moving the mortar behind the grenade upgrade sounds like a decent idea, assuming the vet on the mortar got nerfed.
1 Sep 2016, 18:29 PM
#42
avatar of Domine

Posts: 500



For years you say? Maybe it had something to do with.... Flamer upgrade for USF? :luvDerp:


Nope, it didn't.
1 Sep 2016, 18:32 PM
#43
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1



For years you say? Maybe it had something to do with.... Flamer upgrade for USF? :luvDerp:


Wasn't Rifle company banned in most tourneys anyway?
1 Sep 2016, 21:32 PM
#44
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2487 | Subs: 21

USF mortar just needs to be a little less accurate imo. :guyokay:
1 Sep 2016, 22:39 PM
#45
avatar of Svanh

Posts: 181



I think you and Firesparks are kind of saying the same thing; not having mortars forces USF to get grenades.

However, where your opinions clash is that Firesparks (and I) believe that USF needs to be forced to get grenades, otherwise the ensuing Cpt & Stuart rush will cause USF to almost-always faceroll OST.

Wouldn't it be better to address the issues with USF teching and light vehicles in general before going for the band-aid solution of forcing the grenade upgrade?
2 Sep 2016, 00:50 AM
#46
avatar of Cultist_kun

Posts: 295 | Subs: 1


Except that's not true. OKW has the best early game. Spio>volks>kubel>volks can rush any point on the map you want, even your enemy cutoff. They even get sandbags to hod it. USF doesn't really hit it stride til after they get their first unit after teching.

The mortar was necessary for anti-garrison. Knowing your opponent was going to rush a building and not being able to do anything about it was terrible. Grenades are expensive and easily avoidable, they didn't get the job done. And while you might be able to play the avoidance game in 1v1, it's a lot less viable in the more corridor like teamgames. They can nerf the mortar, but it's existence is necessary for usf to be competitive on building heavy maps.


Except OKW don't even have nades early one to take garrisons, except anti-garrison units require special tier, except OKW don't even have smoke. So it's not fine for USF to invest into nades and get their bar/LMGs later and get Stuart sligly later, while its fine that OKW don't even have a single tool to fight against garrisons. Biased much?
2 Sep 2016, 06:31 AM
#47
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243



Except OKW don't even have nades early one to take garrisons, except anti-garrison units require special tier, except OKW don't even have smoke. So it's not fine for USF to invest into nades and get their bar/LMGs later and get Stuart sligly later, while its fine that OKW don't even have a single tool to fight against garrisons. Biased much?


thats the point. OKW has nothing against it...USF get much tools.

u can in 2v2 make a base lock with 2 allies vs 2 okw player....for the first 5minutes the have no change against it
2 Sep 2016, 07:41 AM
#48
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561



Except OKW don't even have nades early one to take garrisons, except anti-garrison units require special tier, except OKW don't even have smoke. So it's not fine for USF to invest into nades and get their bar/LMGs later and get Stuart sligly later, while its fine that OKW don't even have a single tool to fight against garrisons. Biased much?

Yes OKW does have problems with garrison early. But when they DO tech up they immediately get free access to effective anti-garrison on all their mainline infantry. USF has pay for ineffective anti-garrison and wait longer for a expensive permanent option. Flame-nades actually keep units out of buildings and OKW has an even more powerful opening then even USF, normal grenades are easily dodged.
2 Sep 2016, 09:12 AM
#49
avatar of SUCKmyCLOCK

Posts: 207


OKW has an even more powerful opening then even USF, .





Oh man you almost had me there for a millisecond :rofl:
2 Sep 2016, 10:58 AM
#50
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561






Oh man you almost had me there for a millisecond :rofl:
I guess i'm just imagining it when the go to tactic for okw in 2v2 is to head straight for the enemy cutoff, with spio>volks>kubel. Having the strongest opening unit is a huge benifit, and the kubel speed, lack of bleed, and caping ability is really strong. Rifles might be good, but okw can outnumber them early. General rule of thumb in team games is to not try to go head to head with okw for the fuel at start or you will get forced away.

Put it this way both a USF player and OKW player go for the same point to start. OKW starts with spio vs re. Obviously OKW wins.

Lets say the us player waits for his rifle. Now it's rifle+re, but okw's kubel can get their the same time as the volks because of speed. Now it's spio+kubel+volks vs re+rifle.

Or it can wait even longer, now it's spio+volks+volks+kubel vs rifle+rifle+re. Either way the US player is outnumbered and must play defensively. They don't really start to get the advantage til they bolster their force with their free officer.
2 Sep 2016, 11:53 AM
#51
avatar of Brassatko

Posts: 175


Yes OKW does have problems with garrison early. But when they DO tech up they immediately get free access to effective anti-garrison on all their mainline infantry. USF has pay for ineffective anti-garrison and wait longer for a expensive permanent option. Flame-nades actually keep units out of buildings and OKW has an even more powerful opening then even USF, normal grenades are easily dodged.


If there was any kind of smoke option to get close enough the incendiary grenade would be viable but there isn't, so it's not comparable. The ISG is way too ineffective against garrisons on top of providing no smoke either. That is why maxim spam still works quite well against OKW with very little effort to contain them.
2 Sep 2016, 12:11 PM
#52
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740


The mortar was necessary for anti-garrison. Knowing your opponent was going to rush a building and not being able to do anything about it was terrible.


Welcome to the Axis life.

So please tell me what the OKW player starting north on Semoisky is going to do against a UKF/Soviet player who rushes an MG into the capping point building at the base exit?
The whole city is closed for you then until the mid game and the enemy can defend the other fuel point with his whole army (except the MG inside the house).

OKW has even less anti building tools in the early game. Flame nades come with a minimum of 35 fuel (Medic Truck) or 60 Fuel (Mechanized Truck). Meanwhile there is absolutely nothing OKW can do against an MG inside a house especially on said building on Semoisky.

USF can bite the bullet and research nades early to get smoke to close in and nades to clear buildings. OKW either needs a Stuka (100 Fuel!) or a Medic Truck (pretty non-meta right now) with LeIG what leaves you vulnerable to light vehicles because of the lack of a Puma.

If USF got a mortar, OKW could at least unlock the LeIG in T0 like the MG34 after any truck was built. OKW needs it more than USF did.
2 Sep 2016, 12:19 PM
#53
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Welcome to the Axis life.

So please tell me what the OKW player starting north on Semoisky is going to do against a UKF/Soviet player who rushes an MG into the capping point building at the base exit?
The whole city is closed for you then until the mid game and the enemy can defend the other fuel point with his whole army (except the MG inside the house).


With OKW, there is no way that maxim or vickers will get there first.
Or try to explain me how making vickers and sending through whole city or building T2, making maxim and sending through whole city can be faster than sending SP to the nearest building?
2 Sep 2016, 12:23 PM
#54
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740



With OKW, there is no way that maxim or vickers will get there first.
Or try to explain me how making vickers and sending through whole city or building T2, making maxim and sending through whole city can be faster than sending SP to the nearest building?


I did not say that it happens 100% of the time. But having to keep a unit near a building because losing this building will lose you the game is a very stupid type of gameplay. Making my Sturmpioneers waiting there for support to arrive that can camp inside the building is just dumb.

No offense to you but to the gameplay. I know, I know the building is so important that you should never leave it unobtained. But the way it is right now makes every game on Semoisky the same. Camping around that one particular building.
2 Sep 2016, 12:25 PM
#55
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



I did not say that it happens 100% of the time. But having to keep a unit near a building because losing this building will lose you the game is a very stupid type of gameplay. Making my Sturmpioneers waiting there for support to arrive that can camp inside the building is just dumb.

No offense to you but to the gameplay. I know, I know the building is so important that you should never leave it unobtained. But the way it is right now makes every game on Semoisky the same. Camping around that one particular building.


One could argue that it's the problem with map, not overall faction design.


Good I have both Semoisky maps on my veto list :sibHyena:
2 Sep 2016, 12:28 PM
#56
avatar of Highfiveeeee

Posts: 1740



One could argue that it's the problem with map, not overall faction design.


Good I have both Semoisky maps on my veto list :sibHyena:


Yeah, it's nothing new that the map design is overall rather bad :snfPeter:

The thing is just that there are a lot of maps where a single building dominates the game. There is a map for 2v2 with a big church in the middel, don't know it's name. Also the train station on Bahnhof Ettelbrück. And so on, and so on...

The thing is just that units and stats are more likely to change than the maps though.
2 Sep 2016, 12:30 PM
#57
avatar of Brassatko

Posts: 175



With OKW, there is no way that maxim or vickers will get there first.
Or try to explain me how making vickers and sending through whole city or building T2, making maxim and sending through whole city can be faster than sending SP to the nearest building?


What Highfiveeeee just wrote, plus there goes the early game advantage with Kuebel+Sturm you mentioned when you rely that much on controlling garrisons on such maps. Another thread, but for that reason it's high time to provide smoke to ISG at least.
2 Sep 2016, 12:46 PM
#58
avatar of incognito

Posts: 85

Permanently Banned
ATM OKW is a mixed bag of bad jokes.

#FEELS
2 Sep 2016, 12:57 PM
#59
avatar of Cultist_kun

Posts: 295 | Subs: 1



With OKW, there is no way that maxim or vickers will get there first.
Or try to explain me how making vickers and sending through whole city or building T2, making maxim and sending through whole city can be faster than sending SP to the nearest building?


Dinno, how about you send your Inf section to the main building and rape Sturmpios when they try to get up close, and then simply wait for your vekers to get into the building?

Soviets yes, but again how long OKW will sit in the building under maxim fire? Not to mention that if situation is becoming bad you always have mortar to take OKW out of building. But there is no point for OKW to rush key buildings. Yes, they would win themselfs some time, but usually its not worth it, because you will be pushed back anyway. Untill T1\T2 OKW cant hold ground.
2 Sep 2016, 13:08 PM
#60
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



Dinno, how about you send your Inf section to the main building and rape Sturmpios when they try to get up close, and then simply wait for your vekers to get into the building?

Soviets yes, but again how long OKW will sit in the building under maxim fire? Not to mention that if situation is becoming bad you always have mortar to take OKW out of building. But there is no point for OKW to rush key buildings. Yes, they would win themselfs some time, but usually its not worth it, because you will be pushed back anyway. Untill T1\T2 OKW cant hold ground.


Sturmpios have much closer way to get to this builing than IS so no idea how IS could get there first.

Advice, you don't need to sit under maxim fire. Get out of builind and stay behind it to bait enemy to get in or keep status quo for maxim and your unit.
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